Are the press responsible for Stride's inclusion

[Batman]

OK .. so I guess he must have done it !! Rob the post office that is

Although I think the facts we know for sure regarding Stride's murder, easily out way all the unstable conjecture contained within trajectories and unsubstantiated physics theories .

How's this ... Strides man kills her , then heads off to rob the post office , at the same time Bob the builder AKA ( JTR ) leaves the Gun pub heading down to St Botolf's for a bit of late night action .. Bingo bango !! its a perfect match , trajectories all work , physics is happy , case closed

Ah yes, the coincidence card. People here playing with a half-deck full of those. If you don't like the connection, play the card.

Boy oh boy how a defence attorney would love a jury like that.

It's a just a coincidence! Not Guilty.

[moonbegger]

Batman ..

Eddowes ETD 1:42am - 1:45 am

Are you suggesting that the doctor had it all wrong and in fact the killer could have totally obliterated Kate , crammed an eight or nine minute operation into under two minutes , as well as including his disappearing act ?

I next came into Mitre-square at 1.44, when I discovered the body lying on the right as I entered the square. The woman was on her back, with her feet towards the square. Her clothes were thrown up. I saw her throat was cut and the stomach ripped open.

Regarding the coincidence malarkey .. Two very different murders occurred , two very different locations , two very different knives , two very different MO's . judging each murder on its own merits as opposed to the bloodthirsty double event tinted sunglasses , itself , points to a deadly coincidence .

[moonbegger]

This was just hours before Polly had her throat cut in Bucks row ..

" A man, early on the morning of the tragedy, had made a murderous assault on his wife and cut her throat. She was carried to the London hospital"

Two women get their throats cut in the very same street ! hours apart. Was her husband JTR or just maybe another coincidence ?

moonbegger .

[Batman]

why do you think 8 or 9 minutes?

Pathology - I think the perpetrator of this act had sufficient time, or he would not have nicked the lower eyelids. It would take at least five minutes.

[lynn cates]

analogy

Hello Batman.

"The thing about the Brown analogy to Stride/Eddowes is that its a bad analogy, especially the timing part."

Why? Only a couple hours. He wasn't a time robot was he? He didn't have to kill every free moment, did he? (heh-heh)

"As we can read on this thread the analogy is saying 'IF' Mr. Brown could have made his way to Stride's location by some way, then this is the same as the Stride/Eddowes timing point."

Not quite. Your reasoning assumes that the perpetrator had no down time. (You might try to get the analogy straight.)

"That's totally WRONG. It shows the timing issue between Stride and Eddowes is not fully comprehended."

Not by YOU, anyway.

"The timing issue between Stride and Eddowes is that if you walk from Berner St, towards Mitre Square and if Eddowes walked from the police station to Mitre square, the timing is exact."

Ah! But how fast was he walking? Try it yourself; but, remember, he was in a state of "non dum satiatis." (heh-heh-heh)

"It's an argument from trajectories that overlap at the crucial time."

I would have said, a non sequitur. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

no plagiarism

Hello Andy.

"I thought the point Lynn was making was about my query regarding how "usual" that kind of murder was at the time...i.e 1888..not time as in the "Time" it took the murderer to walk to Mitre Sq...any road upwards..I'm sure Lynn can answer that if deemed necessary.
For my part I think he was disturbed during the Stride murder and still had a sort of bloodlust upon him..unsatiated and came across Eddowes."

Ah! So SOMEONE can understand a simple analogy. (Perhaps that's because you are NOT a scientist. heh-heh)

Actually, since you make a couple of the points I made, I should point out that it was NOT plagiarism, but MERE coincidence. (heh-heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

treble event

Hello Batman.

"He meant timing as per a 'Triple Event' (his words) within hours of each other, not just 1888."

I mean ALL 3 deaths occurred on the same day--and, that lays to rest the notion of "rarity" as well. BOTH you and Andy are correct.

But, again, IF the case had not been solved, we would indeed debate a "Treble Event." I mean, we could NOT have a coincidence, could we? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

If you walk normally from Berner St., to near Mitre Square, it is 11-15 min depending on which route you take.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8755

We know that Eddowes left the police station, was seen by Lawende & co., then a body turned up on Mitre Square.

The question is, if Stride's murderer WALKED from Berner St., to near Mitre Square, would he be too early? Would he be too late? Would he need the downtime you talk about?

The answer is, it is neither too early nor too late. It is the goldilocks zone. Just right. He would arrive near Mitre Square in time to SEE Eddowes, approach her, chat with her, be seen by Lawende and then to have killed her.

Just draw a small circle of vision around the Church Lane corner or nearby. If Eddowes was within that circle then the person walking West from Berner street, not running, not going at a snails pace, but walking, would be within that area at the normal walking rate.

Coincidence? No and the contemporary investigators got this.

[lynn cates]

Meditations on First Eviserations: What May be Doubted

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Not sure how we KNOW Lawende saw Kate.

But why walk normally? I should have thought his "bloodlust" would throw his time off? (heh-heh)

At any rate, why must he kill just as he arrives at Mitre sq? Why not meditate on guts and gore--and the one who got away on Berner? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Reference to Triple Event is surely very misleading. I would agree that it is highly coincidental that Sarah Brown was murdered on the same night as Stride and Eddowes, particularly when you consider the rarity of throat cutting murders. However, this was clearly a much more common domestic murder: she was killed in her own home by her husband who, despite being delusional, immediately went to the police station to confess.

Contrast this murder with that of Stride. Stride was killed outdoors by a silent assassin, who succeeded in drawing no attention to himself, either during or after the murder. Although murdered next to a relatively busy club, no one saw or heard anything- including Mrs D who was sat just yards away, in the kitchen with the window open, or Fanny Mortimer, who was stood at her door, three doors from the club, for a significant period between 12:30 and 1:00am. As Mortimer said herself: " If a man came out of the yard before 1:00am I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found." What is all the more remarkable is that evidence suggests that Nichols, Chapman, and possibly Tabram, had been strangled or suffocated prior to death, which would might have accounted for the absence of cries. This was not the case with Stride.

And then there is the fact that Stride had her back to her killer, packet of cachous in hand, perfectly relaxed, completely oblivious of the fate that awaited her.

Her throat was also severely cut, however, despite the fact that the carotid artery had been partially severed, the killer successfully avoided the problem of arterial spray. This suggests that her throat must have been cut on or near to the ground, which is what probably happened with the other C5 victims.

And, of course, unlike more common domestic murders, there were no obvious suspects, and the murder remained unsolved. As Sir Robert Anderson opined on the 23rd October 1888: "But that five successive murders should have been committed, without our having the slightest clue of any kind is extraordinary, if not unique, in the annals of crime."

Of course, the fact that she wasn't mutilated will always cast doubts on Stride being a Ripper victim. However, for some, those doubts also apply to other victims, such as Eddowes and Kelly.

[lynn cates]

coincidence

Hello John. Thanks.

Not disagreeing. However, it DOES show how coincidences can and DO happen. (That, in SPITE of what Mr. Batman may opine.)

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

This was just hours before Polly had her throat cut in Bucks row ..

" A man, early on the morning of the tragedy, had made a murderous assault on his wife and cut her throat. She was carried to the London hospital"

Two women get their throats cut in the very same street ! hours apart. Was her husband JTR or just maybe another coincidence ?

Also, as far as the 8 or 9 minutes .. Lawende claimed he witnessed the couple at 1.35am , Kate was discovered at 1.44am . According to Dr Brown

It might be done in five minutes. It might take him longer; but that is the least time it could be done in.

He is not including the time it took to walk her down to the far corner of the square , strangle her , wrap up organs , and make good his escape without a footstep being heard .. it really is simple physics batman

Having said all that ! I don't believe for one second that the witnesses actually witnessed Kate .

cheers , moonbegger .

moonbegger .

[John G]

This was just hours before Polly had her throat cut in Bucks row ..



Two women get their throats cut in the very same street ! hours apart. Was her husband JTR or just maybe another coincidence ?

Also, as far as the 8 or 9 minutes .. Lawende claimed he witnessed the couple at 1.35am , Kate was discovered at 1.44am . According to Dr Brown

He is not including the time it took to walk her down to the far corner of the square , strangle her , wrap up organs , and make good his escape without a footstep being heard .. it really is simple physics batman

Having said all that ! I don't believe for one second that the witnesses actually witnessed Kate .

cheers , moonbegger .

moonbegger .

I'm not aware of any other victim having their throat cut the same night as Polly's murder. Can you name the victim or is this just anecdotal? Can you cite a source?

[moonbegger]

Hello John ,

Lloyds weekly 2nd sept 88 , bottom of page 7 .. there are some other more detailed reports elsewhere .

Shortly after noon on Friday some men while searching the pavement in Buck's-row, above the gateway, in a different direction to that from which the woman came, or was brought, found two large spots of blood, and each about the size of a shilling. The first was about 25 feet from the gateway and the second 10 feet beyond. Both were a few inches from the kerb in the roadway and clearly defined. It was at once agreed they came either from the hands or the clothing of the murderer as he went away, and that they resulted from the squeezing out some blood-soaked clothing. Our representative discovered, however, on making inquiries the same night, that at a house near where the blood spots were a man, early on the morning of the tragedy, had made a murderous assault on his wife and cut her throat. She was carried to the London hospital, and it is very probable some blood dripped from her.

cheers , moonbegger

[John G]

Hello John ,

Lloyds weekly 2nd sept 88 , bottom of page 7 .. there are some other more detailed reports elsewhere .



cheers , moonbegger

Hello Moonbegger,

Thanks for reply. Yes, I remember a recent post from Ausgirl indicating that throat cuttings, and even throat cutting suicides, were much more common than today. On the other hand, throat cutting murders were very uncommon.

Cheers,

John