Timing between Eddowes and Stride is bang on

[Wickerman]

I have the Robinson version so I don't think I have that referenced. Maybe someone else with my version can help me.

Yes, mine is a Robinson publication too, but you must see the start of the marginal note, it begins with this, below:

[Here there is a marginal note - "This is rather confused.....etc...

It is placed about 11 lines before the quote you used (The Police apparently do not suspect the 2nd man ..etc.)

You must remember where to find your own quote?

I could scan it if you can't see where the marginal note begins, I only hope Stewart wouldn't mind, thats all.

[Batman]

Different publisher/book.

My Stride chapter starts on 134.

p.136 starts on the 19th October 1888 in which Swanson wrote that 'the police apparently do not suspect the second man,'

Marginal note starts and ends on p.138 between brackets [ ].

So you think because the Marginal report speaks of an Inspector, that it is Swanson. So written by someone else?

I don't know. It doesn't say who did it. To me it doesn't really matter either way because before this Swanson says 'and the police report casts no doubt upon it.'

So we have a police report, that hasn't cast doubt on it, in Swanson's hands by 19th October. Schwartz appears to be corroborated.

[RockySullivan]

I've never heard that the Imperial Club in Duke St and the Berner St International Working Men's Educational Club had too much in common, actually. One was strictly Socialist and had a bit of a reputation for 'rows' among its neighbours while the Imperial, which served kosher meals in a gentlemen's club atmosphere, had apparently been set up to allow business owners in the neighbourhood to meet and talk over deals etc in a cordial atmosphere. There might have been dual members who travelled between them but it doesnt seem very likely.

Thanks rosella, it would be something if someone had been to both that night but I assume the police would have inquired about it

[Abby Normal]

Where did you get that from?

The press account says this:

"...He could not speak a word of English, but came to the police-station accompanied by a friend, who acted as an interpreter. He gave his name and address, but the police have not disclosed them."

I thought every one knew he came in voluntarily, unless you have something to the contrary?

nope your right-My bad-I mixed up the Lawende account.
Thanks for correcting Wicky!

But the first part of my post stands:

And do we really think a conservative jew, a foreigner, a newcomer, a stranger in a strange land is really going to lie to the police in a huge murder investigation-threatening himself and his family?

[Abby Normal]

This account involves Swanson's report, Schwartz's witness testimony and active journalism.

There are no contradictions and everything logically follows.

1. News - Police arrested someone.
The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. The prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted.

This makes sense. If pipeman was arrested due to Schwartz's account then Schwartz implicated him. Pipeman gave chase. So the police don't wholly accept his account. However see next news item.

2. News -The Star, MONDAY, 1 OCTOBER, 1888

Those who saw it thought that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and no notice was taken of it.

So, this was Pipemans story and maybe others where there. It does say 'those'.

3. Swanson says police cleared him.
On the 19th October 1888, Swanson wrote that 'the police apparently do not suspect the second man,’


Pipeman sees two people quarreling and moves on. Schwartz interpreted it as giving chase. Police found Pipeman. Doubted him because Schwartz said he chased him. Later they clear him. Swanson reports this officially.

Conclusion: Schwartz is telling the truth.

Nice Batman-very possible.

[Batman]

Nice Batman-very possible.

Thanks. This is pretty much the standard orthodox view I got from Sugden after he revised modern interpretations of the investigation based on the Kozminski/Cohen hypothesis of Fido.

There are countless threads from the multiple killer hypothesis for the C5 that have a strong requirement to sideline Schwartz as a witness, yet as we can read from the police files, that a senior officer, Swanson, has obtained a police report that they have no reason to doubt him. Then we have the arrests, the statement of the second man (pipeman) no longer being suspected which all lead to the conclusion that they used Schwartz's information to gather in a haul of 'others'.

The papers are reporting that people who saw it thought it was just a man and wife having a quarrel. They call them others.

[John G]

Thanks. This is pretty much the standard orthodox view I got from Sugden after he revised modern interpretations of the investigation based on the Kozminski/Cohen hypothesis of Fido.

There are countless threads from the multiple killer hypothesis for the C5 that have a strong requirement to sideline Schwartz as a witness, yet as we can read from the police files, that a senior officer, Swanson, has obtained a police report that they have no reason to doubt him. Then we have the arrests, the statement of the second man (pipeman) no longer being suspected which all lead to the conclusion that they used Schwartz's information to gather in a haul of 'others'.

The papers are reporting that people who saw it thought it was just a man and wife having a quarrel. They call them others.

Hello Batman,

I've little doubt that the police did believe Scwartz, at least initially. However, that doesn't mean they were correct to do so. As I posted on the other thread, I'm not totally convinced about the evidence of Lawende, Levy and Harris, and the police obviously had complete faith in those three.

I also still think it's possible that, even if Scwartz's account was factually accurate, then Stride may still have been killed by someone else a few minutes later, although I concede this is perhaps unlikely.

I also have serious doubts about the mysterious "others". As I also noted on the other thread if they existed why did they not appear at the inquest or on any police report? And why didn't any of them sell their story to the press; after all, they may well have witnessed Stride's killer and the newspapers seemed to be quite willing to accept evidence from witnesses like Mathew Packer, who offered far less significant information.

[Batman]

Why avoid selling? Witnesses where being arrested on descriptions furnished.

[moonbegger]

Greetings all ,

Yes , of course it is possible for the killer to get to Mitre Sq from Berners St , and run into kate along the way , but is it plausible ?
I think my main points of contention regarding one killer being responsible for the double event would have to be MO , location & desire . We know exactly what the Killer was looking to achieve in light of the total destruction that he created in Mitre Sq ! in a quiet desolate corner where he could hear and almost certainly act upon any interruptions .. Very unlike the Piccadilly Circus kerfuffle that was going on down Berner St . We have Mrs Mortimer , Morris Eagle , Joseph Lave , Lechfords sister , pipeman & Schwartz , not to mention the roomful of club members on the other side of the yard door . Any one of them could have disturbed him at any moment , especially as the noise from the club would have masked any imminent warning sounds he would be relying on to make good his escape .

Along with the unmistakable fact that our murderer most definitely had the ability to put each of his intended victims at total ease in his company , a million miles away from the street squabble the ensued with Liz and her killer .

Was JTR planning a later kill , but spurred into early action in light of the Berner street murder , and ensuing police activity that would no doubt follow soon after ? MMMmmmm ..

Cheers , Moonbegger

[Wickerman]

Different publisher/book.

My Stride chapter starts on 134.

p.136 starts on the 19th October 1888 in which Swanson wrote that 'the police apparently do not suspect the second man,'

Marginal note starts and ends on p.138 between brackets [ ].

So you think because the Marginal report speaks of an Inspector, that it is Swanson. So written by someone else?

I don't know. It doesn't say who did it. To me it doesn't really matter either way because before this Swanson says 'and the police report casts no doubt upon it.'

So we have a police report, that hasn't cast doubt on it, in Swanson's hands by 19th October. Schwartz appears to be corroborated.

Right, when all is said and done, somebody wrote it, but as the note is not dated we can only assume the 2nd man was cleared sometime after 19th October.
And yes, I do not doubt Schwartz either, but neither do I believe he necessarily saw the killer.

[Wickerman]

nope your right-My bad-I mixed up the Lawende account.
Thanks for correcting Wicky!

But the first part of my post stands:

And do we really think a conservative jew, a foreigner, a newcomer, a stranger in a strange land is really going to lie to the police in a huge murder investigation-threatening himself and his family?

No problem these things happen.

You're right, unlikely he lied, though somebody added that knife to Pipeman.

[John G]

Why avoid selling? Witnesses where being arrested on descriptions furnished.

Surely the risk was minimal. After all, the likes of Packer, Hutchinson, Schwartz, Levy, Harris, Lawende, etc, all gave accounts to the press without being arrested.

[Batman]

Busy Berner St.

Surely the risk was minimal. After all, the likes of Packer, Hutchinson, Schwartz, Levy, Harris, Lawende, etc, all gave accounts to the press without being arrested.

The reason why I think there would have been more witnesses is because Berner Street was not empty. It had a haul of witnesses from different perspectives, not necessarily in relation to Schwartz's account. They are on record. Then we have the patrons of the club. People coming and going. Despite the press learning about the above witnesses, we also know the investigators actively told people not to talk to them about what they saw.

Since arrests where happening, that potential was there. I don't think it sounds initially like Pipeman came forward voluntarily. I suspect he was a much older gentleman sucking on a pipe and out of wind as he left the area in a hurry.

It was a double murder. So really its just Packer for Stride and the 3 other Jewish men leaving together near Mitre Square. That's not a whole pile of people.

However Berner Street... not such an empty spot.

[Wickerman]

So really its just Packer for Stride and the 3 other Jewish men leaving together near Mitre Square. That's not a whole pile of people.

The only part of Packers statement I find interesting is the time & location of the man who was with Stride. Packer placed the couple right opposite the club at 12:30, where PC Smith placed the couple he saw.

Descriptions of the men are different, though this even happens in modern cases. PC Smith is not without fault, he could not decide whether this man wore a hard felt hat, or a deerstalker.

Packer, aged about 57, may have been short sighted, so the couple, when standing across the road, could have been a blur to him. He only saw the mans chest through the serving window, with it being so low.

Even though Packer destroyed his credibility by changing his story, this portion of his statement has a ring of truth about it, if only due to PC Smith seeing a similar couple at the same location, at the same time.

[Batman]

Jewish places of interest

Having looked at Jewish places it seems that there might be grounds for noting that in the cases of Mitre Sq., Goulston St., and Berner St., these are Jewish places of interest.

Is it possible it all began in Goulston St.?

JtR has an altercation over goods there and/or tried to find a prostitute to kill, but can't. Writes the Graffiti. Heads/follows Jews to Berner St., looking to murder there to cast blame as in Chapman's aftermath. Doesn't succeed. Heads to Mitre Sq. Synagogue. Succeeds and then dumps the apron back at the graffiti bringing it back full circle.