Timing between Eddowes and Stride is bang on

[Harry D]

Here's something that'll really twist your melon: What if BS man murdered Eddowes but NOT Stride?

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes, this is a problem which is why I am on the fence regarding Stride being a Ripper victim, although on the other side of the debate Lynn's cachous argument, which I find very persuasive, clearly makes it more likely, and at the very least a lot less likely that this was a common domestic murder.

Of course, as I said in reply to Jon, if you argue that the knife was in fact similar to the one used against the other C5 victims then that fails to explain the fact that, despite the severity of the throat cut, there were no extensive neck mutilations; unlike the other C5 victims where the neck mutilations were so severe it has been argued that the killer was attempting to decapitate his victims.

For me the arguments for or against Stride being a Ripper victim are finely balanced. I'm undecided.

I don't subscribe to the deliberate attempted decapitation angle. My belief is that the killer was behind his victims whilst they were still standing and deeply inserted the knife into the throats drawing it across the deeper the knife went in the more likely the decapitation effect.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon,

But surely if we speculate that the knife was of a similar size and type as the one used on the other C5 victims, that presents a problem for the argument that Stride was a Ripper victim. I mean, I accept what Batman is saying, that her throat was severely cut, but Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly were virtually decapitated.

Hello John.
Because the blade of a shoemaker's knife is typically short, for arguments sake lets say 3-4 inch long, it reads to me that the depth of the slice into Stride's neck was approx. 3-4 inch. This can also be achieved with a blade of 6-8 inch long, so Phillips could not say for certain how long the blade was, only what the minimum length had to be.

As you know, Stride's throat bore only one cut. The wounds to Nichols & Chapman show evidence of two sweeps of the knife, with Eddowes the number of cuts are not stated.
Once the neck is opened with the first cut, a second sweep of the knife in an already open wound can give the impression of a longer blade, but the knife can only penetrate as deep as the spine, so there is no reliable way to determine how long the knife was which was used on the neck of any of the victims.

The blade length is therefore estimated by looking at the various abdominal organs (kidney, liver, etc.) to see if they were stabbed and then measure the depth of the stab into the organ, from the surface of the abdomen - much like is done today.
I guess what I am saying in a long-winded manner is, the actual length of the blade used on Stride is undetermined.

It also creates difficulties regarding the lack of abdominal mutilations, or even an attempt to mutilate. Of course, this can be explained, but it means complete reliance on the theory that the killer was disturbed, rather than the possibility that this was an impulse kill and he simply had a knife inadequate for the purpose.

This is the crux though isn't it, was he or was he not interrupted?
In all fairness either are possible and I think we all acknowledge this, arguments in support of either preference are likely to remain unresolved.

At one time I was a firm believer that Stride was not a Ripper victim, these days I am 50/50, as I said, on the fence.
I can see the problem from either side but I do have two niggling problems with this murder that are pushing me to accept her as a Ripper victim, I'm trying to fight them off

[Batman]

I don't subscribe to the deliberate attempted decapitation angle. My belief is that the killer was behind his victims whilst they were still standing and deeply inserted the knife into the throats drawing it across the deeper the knife went in the more likely the decapitation effect.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

In zero gravity you might have a case, where the blood would jettison into particles and drift outwards.

On planet Earth though we have gravity. We also have blood pressure.

In your scenario you would have blood spills down their front. There is none.

You would have blood splatter against walls and fences at standing height. There is none.

In fact all the arterial spray demonstrates they where killed while lying down. Chapman for example. The blood is only a few inches up the fence from the ground.

I'm glad to see Lynn has called it quits after being outed with his custom version of his fallacy which conflicts with every reference out there. If you spout rubbish, expect it to be critizied.

As far as I can tell, the whole "stride not a ripper victim" crowd are seriously confused about what their arguments even are and with statements like Trevor's it hard to see things getting any better.

[John G]

In zero gravity you might have a case, where the blood would jettison into particles and drift outwards.

On planet Earth though we have gravity. We also have blood pressure.

In your scenario you would have blood spills down their front. There is none.

You would have blood splatter against walls and fences at standing height. There is none.

In fact all the arterial spray demonstrates they where killed while lying down. Chapman for example. The blood is only a few inches up the fence from the ground.

I'm glad to see Lynn has called it quits after being outed with his custom version of his fallacy which conflicts with every reference out there. If you spout rubbish, expect it to be critizied.

As far as I can tell, the whole "stride not a ripper victim" crowd are seriously confused about what their arguments even are and with statements like Trevor's it hard to see things getting any better.

Hello Batman,

I agree that there is evidence with all C5 victims that the killer cut the victims throat when they were on or close to the ground, with the attention of avoiding getting covered in arterial spray. This is evidence of a common strategy, which I have argued many times before.

However, regarding Stride, although the result was clearly lack of arterial spray, isn't there a possibility that this was accidental rather than deliberate? Thus, is it at least possible that her throat was cut whilst she was upright, but pulling the scarf tightly around the throat stemmed the flow of blood? I'm clearly no expert so I would be interested in your opinion.

Of course, even if pulling the scarf tightly around the neck stemmed the flow of blood, this could also suggest evidence of a strategy. But I believe it has also been argued that the purpose was to expose the throat to make it easier to cut, but I'm not sure how likely a proposition that is.

[m_w_r]

I don't subscribe to the deliberate attempted decapitation angle. My belief is that the killer was behind his victims whilst they were still standing and deeply inserted the knife into the throats drawing it across the deeper the knife went in the more likely the decapitation effect.

Killers, plural, surely, Trevor?

Regards,

Mark

[El White Chap]

My belief is that the killer was behind his victims whilst they were still standing

Wow, just wow. Let's start again right at the beginning shall we...

[Batman]

Also Stride's legs where drawn up and her arm resting on her belly, a signature found in several of the other victims.

Her artery was severed and that's the one that really sprays.

Its about 100ml per second on average. Its behaves like a hose for under 1/2 minute.

In a little over 3 seconds you would have a coke cans worth spilling out. Could a scarf capture most of that before spilling down the neck by applying pressure? I think the scarf and pressure could prevent the jetting but not gravitational forces. There would be blood down the neck and chest.

Even tourniquets leak.

[Batman]

Another signature is the partial strangulation. The pathology reports talk about such bruising although don't directly say strangulation. What the implication is though is that they are unconscious or rendered semi unconscious and then attacked with a knife. Unconscious people aren't very upright are they?

[lynn cates]

reenactment

Hello John. Regarding the Stride murder and the scarf, I have a recreation of this on youtube. Just look for lcates55.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

fallacious

Hello All. Just to keep the record straight:

Regarding the fallacy, "Post Hoc Ergo Proper Hoc" (after this, therefore, because of this) is a form of "Non Csusa Pro Causa" (non cause for a cause), or, as we logic teachers put it, "False Cause."

Our friend "BM" made a remark about temporal synchronicity. I adduced an example of temporal synchronicity which showed its irrelevance. Then he kept going on about my argument and causation. When I pointed out that it (my argument) had nothing to do with causation, he assumed that was a reference to a fallacy I have been demonstrating to classes for a quarter century.

So today's fallacy is, "Ignoratio Elenchi."

Cheers.
LC

[pinkmoon]

After nearly been caught red handed with Liz stride our killer must have had quite a shock could he have decided to call it a night and head for home but on the way bumped into eddowes and found the oppotunity for another murder to tempting?

[GUT]

Hello BM. Thanks.

The point involved temporal synchronicity. The fallacy shows WHY time is not always the most important factor. Of course, any one with reasoning skill would know that.

Incidentally, if I require logic lessons, it would NOT be from a would be scientist.

Now, about those Petrie dishes . . .

Cheers.
LC

G'day Lynn


Funny isn't it when people who think they know a little about a topic [in this case logic and fallacy] want to teach you your profession.

There are probably only three topics I'd stand my ground in without moving an inch, but I've got tertiary qualifications in all three and have lectured at Uni in all three some discrete areas of those I'd even give ground on, but the basics no way.

[lynn cates]

immaturity

Hello GUT. Thanks.

Quite true. I suppose it's just immaturity. One needs to ascertain facts BEFORE making a pronouncement. He'll grow up some day.

(You piqued my curiosity. PM me your specialty? Just now I crave an intelligent conversation.)

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

In zero gravity you might have a case, where the blood would jettison into particles and drift outwards.

On planet Earth though we have gravity. We also have blood pressure.

In your scenario you would have blood spills down their front. There is none.

You would have blood splatter against walls and fences at standing height. There is none.

In fact all the arterial spray demonstrates they where killed while lying down. Chapman for example. The blood is only a few inches up the fence from the ground.

I'm glad to see Lynn has called it quits after being outed with his custom version of his fallacy which conflicts with every reference out there. If you spout rubbish, expect it to be critizied.

As far as I can tell, the whole "stride not a ripper victim" crowd are seriously confused about what their arguments even are and with statements like Trevor's it hard to see things getting any better.

This issue of arterial spray was discussed on a thread not so long ago where a forensic pathologist offered the following input

"Blood loss could have been great if major neck vessels were severed. It is possible for much of the bleeding to remain within the body, though, so it would not necessarily result in a large volume of blood being visible externally"

The only one confused here is you with your illogical ramblings

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk