Timing between Eddowes and Stride is bang on

[Batman]

The investigators at the time understood this. I don't see how one can select the much lower probability that they are different murderers.

Stride's ETD 12:45-1:00am
Eddowes ETD 1:42am - 1:45 am

45 minutes max between them.

It's 11-15 minutes between Dutfield Yard and Mitre Square give or take a few minutes depending on which route you take. If you avoid commercial rd its the longer one.

Eddowes was released from Bishopsgate Police Station at 1am. From here to Mitre Square area is about 8 minutes.

Eddowes is in Mitre square by 1:34am talking to her murderer according to Lawende et al.

Eddowes, who is out of the drunk tank, if walking normally, could make Mitre Square by 1:08 at the least. It is more likely for someone who has recently been incapacitated from drink to take a little longer. Here we are talking a matter of a few minutes.

Stride's killer, if walking east, could make Mitre Square by 1:11am to 1:15am. The reason for him going here is due to geoprofiling and moving in a radius around where he lives so as not to be discovered near the murder sites.

If Stride's killer walked east there is a chance he would see Eddowes. She doesn't need to see him. He is the one doing the looking.

The convergence here between both arriving at the square or nearby is a matter of minutes. Its a Goldilocks zone. Not too short. Not too long, within parameters because at 1:34am she is seen talking to her murderer and well into a conversation it seems with her hand on his chest. There would likely have been a conversation talking place between the killer and Eddowes from 1:11am to 1:15am (killer arrival) to before 1:34am (witnesses) for the killer to meet her. Again a matter of minutes.

The throat is part of the neck. In both cases the whole neck was attacked deeply. We call this a neck slashing or neck gashing, not a slit throat.

The alternative, that they are not the same killer, has to explain the above without recourse to coincidence. If they want to play the coincidence card here, then likely they have a deck of these, because they will be playing coincidence AGAIN shortly after when it comes to the Goulston Street graffiti.

Synchronicity wins out over coincidence.

The investigators understood this at the time.

[Abby Normal]

The investigators at the time understood this. I don't see how one can select the much lower probability that they are different murderers.

Stride's ETD 12:45-1:00am
Eddowes ETD 1:42am - 1:45 am

45 minutes max between them.

It's 11-15 minutes between Dutfield Yard and Mitre Square give or take a few minutes depending on which route you take. If you avoid commercial rd its the longer one.

Eddowes was released from Bishopsgate Police Station at 1am. From here to Mitre Square area is about 8 minutes.

Eddowes is in Mitre square by 1:34am talking to her murderer according to Lawende et al.

Eddowes, who is out of the drunk tank, if walking normally, could make Mitre Square by 1:08 at the least. It is more likely for someone who has recently been incapacitated from drink to take a little longer. Here we are talking a matter of a few minutes.

Stride's killer, if walking east, could make Mitre Square by 1:11am to 1:15am. The reason for him going here is due to geoprofiling and moving in a radius around where he lives so as not to be discovered near the murder sites.

If Stride's killer walked east there is a chance he would see Eddowes. She doesn't need to see him. He is the one doing the looking.

The convergence here between both arriving at the square or nearby is a matter of minutes. Its a Goldilocks zone. Not too short. Not too long, within parameters because at 1:34am she is seen talking to her murderer and well into a conversation it seems with her hand on his chest. There would likely have been a conversation talking place between the killer and Eddowes from 1:11am to 1:15am (killer arrival) to before 1:34am (witnesses) for the killer to meet her. Again a matter of minutes.

The throat is part of the neck. In both cases the whole neck was attacked deeply. We call this a neck slashing or neck gashing, not a slit throat.

The alternative, that they are not the same killer, has to explain the above without recourse to coincidence. If they want to play the coincidence card here, then likely they have a deck of these, because they will be playing coincidence AGAIN shortly after when it comes to the Goulston Street graffiti.

Synchronicity wins out over coincidence.

The investigators understood this at the time.

yup. And add to that the church street sighting in between of peaked cap man whos seen by several witnesses with stride and by Lawende with Eddowes and its all pretty much of a no brainer.

one of the few things in this case that is-or should be at least.

[Trevor Marriott]

The investigators at the time understood this. I don't see how one can select the much lower probability that they are different murderers.

Stride's ETD 12:45-1:00am
Eddowes ETD 1:42am - 1:45 am

45 minutes max between them.

It's 11-15 minutes between Dutfield Yard and Mitre Square give or take a few minutes depending on which route you take. If you avoid commercial rd its the longer one.

Eddowes was released from Bishopsgate Police Station at 1am. From here to Mitre Square area is about 8 minutes.

Eddowes is in Mitre square by 1:34am talking to her murderer according to Lawende et al.

Eddowes, who is out of the drunk tank, if walking normally, could make Mitre Square by 1:08 at the least. It is more likely for someone who has recently been incapacitated from drink to take a little longer. Here we are talking a matter of a few minutes.

Stride's killer, if walking east, could make Mitre Square by 1:11am to 1:15am. The reason for him going here is due to geoprofiling and moving in a radius around where he lives so as not to be discovered near the murder sites.

If Stride's killer walked east there is a chance he would see Eddowes. She doesn't need to see him. He is the one doing the looking.

The convergence here between both arriving at the square or nearby is a matter of minutes. Its a Goldilocks zone. Not too short. Not too long, within parameters because at 1:34am she is seen talking to her murderer and well into a conversation it seems with her hand on his chest. There would likely have been a conversation talking place between the killer and Eddowes from 1:11am to 1:15am (killer arrival) to before 1:34am (witnesses) for the killer to meet her. Again a matter of minutes.

The throat is part of the neck. In both cases the whole neck was attacked deeply. We call this a neck slashing or neck gashing, not a slit throat.

The alternative, that they are not the same killer, has to explain the above without recourse to coincidence. If they want to play the coincidence card here, then likely they have a deck of these, because they will be playing coincidence AGAIN shortly after when it comes to the Goulston Street graffiti.

Synchronicity wins out over coincidence.

The investigators understood this at the time.

The times of death are only estimated and not to be totally reliable as being correct. Same as the doctors trying to say the killer was left handed or right handed, guesswork

https://www.trevormarriott

[El White Chap]

This is undoubtedly an argument with considerable strength to it. The timeline seems to be at the very least convincing and more than relatively precise. To add further substance, the sightings of the peaked cap man with both Liz and Kate reinforces this notion of events.

Thank you Batman and Abby, my suspicions that Stride was killed by the same hand weren't so solid before today. In fact I've often doubted it (as do plenty of others on these boards) for many reasons given by other credible posters here.

Following this thread I'm now more certain than I've ever been that the 'Double Event' was indeed just that.

Until I see some other 'evidence' to the contrary I'm now swayed to believe Stride was killed by the same man as Eddowes, Chapman, Polly and probably Kelly too.

The other victims in the Whitechapel Murders case file are still up for debate in contention with those mentioned above. There are some similarities and symmetries there also.

[Wickerman]

It's 11-15 minutes between Dutfield Yard and Mitre Square give or take a few minutes depending on which route you take.

What if you're a staggering drunk, like BS-man was described as, how long would it take now?

Otherwise, apart from getting your east-west mixed up the idea is sound enough.

The throat is part of the neck. In both cases the whole neck was attacked deeply. We call this a neck slashing or neck gashing, not a slit throat.

Do you regard the throat cuts to Coles & McKenzie as similar to Stride?

[Batman]

Your right its west.

[Batman]

Do you regard the throat cuts to Coles & McKenzie as similar to Stride?

In the case of Coles she was killed with a blunt knife which is unlike JtR who would have kept his blade sharp and treasured in a way. Since it was blunt, even though there were 3 attempts made, it was a cut throat, as opposed to a neck slash/partial decaputation.

McKenzie's wounds are shallow/scratches, even the mutilations. Her neck was stabbed at.

For someone who had 10 weeks of near decaputations and stripping one victim to the bone, these both seem even lower on the scale of mutilation than Nichols or even Stride.

The answer is maybe, but then one needs an explanation for why the lesser degree of neck wounds and mutilation.

If both of these are victims are the same JtR then the killer may been put away for something else between those periods or non-activity. I thought about Kozminski being in and out of an asylum one time, explaining how the murders aren't as frenzied, but I think he was inside for McKenzie by a few weeks.

The bottom line is this. The C5 are just the one's we know are by JtR. It is more than likely that he committed many more crimes, accousted many more women and hurt many more people, but it either went unreported, or lost in the mountain of reports.

I don't want to turn this thread into a McKenzie/Coles one though if possible. I just want to stick with the Eddowes/Stride timing. Would be happy to address them on their respective forums.

[John G]

Hi Batman,
In relation to Stride's wound do you think it significant that a small-bladed knife appears to have been used? In other words, wouldn't a significant amount of force be required to create such a wound with a smaller-bladed knife?

[Wickerman]

For what its worth, I suspect the man who attacked Stride (BS-man), could have been the man seen with her at 11:45 by William Marshall.
The descriptions are close.

Described by Marshall:
"...man was wearing a black short coat and dark trousers. He seemed to be middle aged, and was wearing a round cap with a small peak, something like what a sailor would wear. He was about 5ft. 6in. in height, rather stout, and appeared decently dressed. He did not look like a dock labourer nor a butcher, but had more the appearance of a clerk."

Described by Swanson (source: Schwartz)
"...age about 30, ht. 5ft 5in. Comp. Fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers, black cap with peak,.."

Described by Star reporter (source: Schwartz)
"...about 30 years of age, rather stoutly built, and wearing a brown moustache. He was dressed respectably in dark clothes and felt hat."

Though I don't think this man was her killer.

[Wickerman]

Following this thread I'm now more certain than I've ever been that the 'Double Event' was indeed just that.

Until I see some other 'evidence' to the contrary I'm now swayed to believe Stride was killed by the same man as Eddowes, Chapman, Polly and probably Kelly too.

I can't help feeling that Lawende's lack of confidence about recognizing the man, and the fact he did not see Eddowes face, only seeing her from the rear, means the couple seen in Duke St. may not have been Eddowes with her killer after all.
Lawende & Levy appear to be certain about the time, ie; 1:34 am. Then Watkins finds her body at 1:44 am.
The distance down Church Passage from Duke St. to the murder corner in Mitre Sq. plus the time it would take to do the mutilations I suspect span longer than 10 minutes.
It is just too tight.

[Batman]

The distance between Duke St. Corner to Church passage and Mitre Square is less than a minute.

Eddowes front was not removed in several large portions like Chapman/Kelly. It was a single jagged cut. We are talking a few minute. Just count 120 seconds. Its a lot of time.

Lawende identified her by her clothes.

[Wickerman]

It's a minute is it?
Depending how fast you walk, no doubt.

On Foster's map the distance down the passage is 85 ft, then across the square is about 75 ft, so approx. 160 ft to walk, at a casual pace.
He can hardly grab her by the elbow and usher her down the passage, he has to be casual about it.

Swanson voiced the same concern about the clothes, they were too common, every prostitute wore black.

[Batman]

It's a minute is it?
Depending how fast you walk, no doubt.

On Foster's map the distance down the passage is 85 ft, then across the square is about 75 ft, so approx. 160 ft to walk, at a casual pace.
He can hardly grab her by the elbow and usher her down the passage, he has to be casual about it.

Swanson voiced the same concern about the clothes, they were too common, every prostitute wore black.

I say 1 minute. 1 min map.

Lawende also described a man similar to the person Schwartz seen as pointed out by Abby.

Again how many coincidences need to played here in order to make them unrelated?

Just by coincidence happened to see someone like the victim at the corner with a man who coincidentally just looks like Schwartz killer, all which coincidentally converge on the timing you would expect if there was a link. That's 3 coincidences even without the coincidental Gouslton St. graffiti being added to it to make 4 for those who choose that route.

I would rather bet winning on the national lottery than play those low odds of several coincidences running tandem.

[Batman]

Hi Batman,
In relation to Stride's wound do you think it significant that a small-bladed knife appears to have been used? In other words, wouldn't a significant amount of force be required to create such a wound with a smaller-bladed knife?

Can you give me more details on this please.

[Wickerman]

Just by coincidence happened to see someone like the victim at the corner with a man who coincidentally just looks like Schwartz killer, all which coincidentally converge on the timing you would expect if there was a link. That's 3 coincidences even without the coincidental Gouslton St. graffiti being added to it to make 4 for those who choose that route.

But these are subjective coincidences, meaning, it depends on how you view the evidence. Another person may, and likely can, see an alternate interpretation.

Peaked caps were common among the working class, and most men wore dark clothing. Schwartz's man was broad shouldered, full face and 5ft 5in, whereas Lawende's man was 5ft 9in with no stated build but a red neckerchief.

There are similarities yes, but also differences, though even if they are the same, this man was not seen with the other victims, Chapman or Kelly.

Talking of which, does the above sound like Blotchy? - a short, stout man, billycock hat, full carroty moustache, shabbily dressed?
Not exactly "sailor" looking.

If we are still interested in one killer, the suspect must be compatible with suspect sightings at the other murders.