Pipeman interviewed and cleared

[RockySullivan]

"Dutfield's Yard


Dutfield's Yard as depicted in Famous Crimes, Past and Present, Harold Furniss 1903.
Murder site of Elizabeth Stride, 30th September 1888.
A narrow yard between Nos.40 (the International Working Men's Educational Club) and 42 Berner Street. The entrance to the yard was approx. 9 feet wide, with a pair of wooden gates which provided access. Each gate was approx. 4 feet 6inches wide. The left gate was fitted with a wicket (a small door) to be used when the gates proper were closed. Lettered in white paint on the gates was "W. Hindley, Sack Manufacturer" and "A. Dutfield, Van and Cart Builder". Arthur Dutfield had actually moved his part of the business to 10-18 Pinchin Street two years prior to the murder[1] . The cart making business was located next to an unused stable on the west side if the yard. Also on the west side was the sack manufacturer. On the north side, on the right as you entered the gates, was the Worker's Club. On the south side were three artisan's dwellings converted from older buildings. On the left of the entrance were terraced cottages occupied by cigarette makers and tailors.
Stride's body was discovered about 10-15 feet along the northern side of the yard, just before the door of the club, in front of a cellar ventilation grate."

Remember that cart that was abandoned and parked on Pinchin near the torso dump site? A cellar ventilation grate...could the loft have had a way to access the cellar?

[Rosella]

You mean like a tunnel? I don't know. Judging by the look of some of those workshops and other buildings in the slums of London, they look as if they've been erected at a cost of 10 bob each. They'd be lucky to have foundations, let alone cellars leading into other cellars!

[Pcdunn]

Right but like Rosella said Reid claims it was bolted from the inside.

I guess I was visualizing it wrong, then. Never mind...

[Rosella]

Whether it was locked or bolted doesn't seem to be quite clear. I was just saying in a previous post that if it was bolted it really is a mystery as you can't undo a bolt from the inside.

I discovered that once when I was on holiday in Malaysia. A holiday companion had bolted my door from the inside without my knowing it and then left by the door leading to an adjoining room. When I got back and tried to use the card it was useless. A hotel employee had to swing outside from the next balcony to my balcony to get into my room to unbolt it!
Sorry for going off topic!

Judging by the drawings of these buildings at the bottom of Dutfield Yard the 'loft' on the taller building is accessed by steps and a verandah type arrangement. It doesn't seem to have windows does it? How could the workmen see to get supplies?

[RockySullivan]

Whether it was locked or bolted doesn't seem to be quite clear. I was just saying in a previous post that if it was bolted it really is a mystery as you can't undo a bolt from the inside.

I discovered that once when I was on holiday in Malaysia. A holiday companion had bolted my door from the inside without my knowing it and then left by the door leading to an adjoining room. When I got back and tried to use the card it was useless. A hotel employee had to swing outside from the next balcony to my balcony to get into my room to unbolt it!
Sorry for going off topic!

Judging by the drawings of these buildings at the bottom of Dutfield Yard the 'loft' on the taller building is accessed by steps and a verandah type arrangement. It doesn't seem to have windows does it? How could the workmen see to get supplies?

carring a lantern? wonder if we can get more info on outfield and a list of employees. an empty business is perfect for dismemberment...and you've got a cart straight to pinchin

[RockySullivan]

When Diemschutz entered the yard his Pony didn't shy until Stride's body was even with Diemschutz because when he stepped down he was right by her body. I don't think the pony shied because of the dead body, but because the Ripper was straight ahead of it, either in the shadows or already in the loft. This loft HAS to be the key to murder if it was locked from the inside. It either had a window, had a secret exit, trap door, or the ripper was still hiding inside when it was searched.

[Rosella]

^Maybe Jack was lurking in the darkness of the latrines, which were a great deal nearer to the club and where Liz was lying that the loft, forge and workshop were.

[RockySullivan]

^Maybe Jack was lurking in the darkness of the latrines, which were a great deal nearer to the club and where Liz was lying that the loft, forge and workshop were.

Maybe but if he wasn't already in the loft, why go lock himself instead of leaving once diemschutz arrived

[Rosella]

We don't know where Jack was straight after Liz's throat was cut. Nobody knows. He could have scuttled off when he heard the sound of the pony and cart coming nearer but still some way off and Louis, who might have been adjusting the reins or something, didn't notice. He could have skulked about in the darkness of the yard or in the loft or the toilets.

I favour the toilets because (a) they were as black as the ace of spades (b) unlike the loft, they were within peering distance of what Louis D. was doing and therefore Jack could have walked swiftly out of the gates when Diemshutz rushed into the club, and (c) If a person from up the yard had come there in the interim he wouldn't be investigated. Everyone uses the toilet, and until everyone came running out of the club no-one up the yard knew there was anything wrong.

That's a bit different to the loft. If anyone from the cottages or printing office had noticed someone climbing the stairs to the verandah and the loft Jack would have been in a bit of trouble.

[RockySullivan]

I agree Rosella it doesn't quite make sense why the killer would lock himself in the loft. But if it was bolted from the inside this seems the only plausible explanation. If he was hiding in the johns why head for the loft, he would've headed outside. It seems he planned to escape through the loft and this means he was familiar with some sort of trap door or secret exit.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

^Maybe Jack was lurking in the darkness of the latrines, which were a great deal nearer to the club and where Liz was lying that the loft, forge and workshop were.

I like this idea. JtR is moving back to the latrine when cart enters. Poney stops. Driver goes to see body, sees it's a woman goes into the club.

Now, the front door of the club is locked, he probably has the key, but he might also walked along the building and entered by the kitchen door at the back which was ajar. Meanwhile, JtR leaves slowly by the gate.

[RockySullivan]

I like this idea. JtR is moving back to the latrine when cart enters. Poney stops. Driver goes to see body, sees it's a woman goes into the club.

Now, the front door of the club is locked, he probably has the key, but he might also walked along the building and entered by the kitchen door at the back which was ajar. Meanwhile, JtR leaves slowly by the gate.

But that ignores the whole mystery of the loft being bolted from the inside

[RockySullivan]

I read over reid's statement, and I'm not sure if he is referring to the loft in dutfield yard, or one nearby..does anyone know for sure?

[Michael W Richards]

The stables, and presumably the loft, weren't really abandoned just empty and disused. Arthur Dutfield had owned a business, A Dutfiield, van and cart builder, in the buildings at the top of the Yard, but he had moved to Pinchin St. (His name was still on the gates.)

He probably had used the stables in his business. However, a W Hindley, had a store or workshop up there for his sack manufacturing business. You wouldn't think he would have a loft, but you never know.

The "loft" in this case was the upstairs in the disused stable in the back of the yard as you say,... where an office door was found locked. Not bolted from the inside, but locked. That's easily explained when you know that many locks in the Victorian period were simply engaged or disengaged manually, meaning you could set the lock as you leave and the door would be locked when its closed.

[RockySullivan]

Thanks do you have a source for this?