Berner St. 1909 Sun/Shadow Study

[GUT]

Well, the Dutfield's Yard (Phillip Hutchinson) photo and analysis in his book 'Location Photos' showed me where I was going wrong. I've had that book for ages but foolishly forgot about it. Then someone mentioned it and jogged my memory. Hutchinson demonstrates that most of the contemporary drawings are inaccurate and shows by way of the photograph where things were such as the wooden steps and the cottage door/window configuration.

The Goad fire map shows the steps on the left hand side whereas the drawings (and Jane's paintings) show them on the right.

So by using the Hutchinson photo along with Goad etc. I can start again and maybe this time get it right!

OK. I don't have the book but it sounds like the best bet by far. Good luck and again thanks for the hard work.

[Dr. John Watson]

Well, the Dutfield's Yard (Phillip Hutchinson) photo and analysis in his book 'Location Photos' showed me where I was going wrong. I've had that book for ages but foolishly forgot about it. Then someone mentioned it and jogged my memory. Hutchinson demonstrates that most of the contemporary drawings are inaccurate and shows by way of the photograph where things were such as the wooden steps and the cottage door/window configuration.

The Goad fire map shows the steps on the left hand side whereas the drawings (and Jane's paintings) show them on the right.

So by using the Hutchinson photo along with Goad etc. I can start again and maybe this time get it right!

I remember asking about this book, which I don't have either, but from what I recall, the photo (assuming it really is Dutfield's Yard) was taken sometime after 1900 - am I correct? If this is the case, isn't it possible some structural changes could have been made during the intervening years, not necessarily to the club building itself, but to the background buildings, such as roof lines, stairways, etc? Wouldn't contemporary drawings sketched at the time be more accurate than a photo taken many years later? Why would an artist deliberately misplace or change something? I don't know how Mr. Hutchinson can prove that contemporary drawings are inaccurate, but personally I'd trust the guy who actually stood there in 1888 and made the sketch over any modern-day conclusions based on interpretation and conjecture. It also seems to me that several contemporary sketches were made by different artists, so I guess they'd all have to have gotten it wrong. As I say, I haven't seen the photo or read Mr. Hutchinson's explanation as to why the photo is different from the contemporary sketches, but I wouldn't base your reconstruction on it, any more than on the Goad map which may be include structures, stairways, etc. that existed either before or after the date of the map. That's just my opinion.

John

[Dr. John Watson]

Richard, you've probably already reviewed prior threads concerning Dutfield's Yard drawings, but in case you missed it, here's a link to Jane Coram's posting relating to her painting:

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/14948.html

Dr. John

[richardh]

John
Thanks for the reply and advice. I agree that the position of the wooden steps could have moved from left to right during the years between '88 and 1900 and contemporary drawings should be trustworthy - especially if there are several depicting the same detail. But with regard to the cottages on the right there are certainly discrepancies between the drawings and the Hutchinson photo. IF the Hutchingshon photo really IS a photo of Dutfield's yard then it shows only a single door after the 'murder spot', followed by four mismatched windows. The contemporary drawings show a variety of door/window configurations and Jane's painting - which is based on a contemp drawing - also shows differing window/door configs to the 1900 photo. It's possible for the windows/doors of the cottages to have been altered too I suppose, but doubtful.

Admittedly the 1899 Goad's insurance plan shows agreement with the 1900 photo with regard to the wooden steps but both plan & photo were over 10 years after the murder so things could have been altered in the interim.

I'm wondering if I should keep agreement with the drawings in relation to the steps but use the 1900 photo for the cottage windows/doors.

Richard, you've probably already reviewed prior threads concerning Dutfield's Yard drawings, but in case you missed it, here's a link to Jane Coram's posting relating to her painting:

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/14948.html

Dr. John

[Dr. John Watson]

Richard, I found a cropped copy of the Hutchinson photo he published for some reason, and from the narrow angle of the shot you really can't see the openings in the clubhouse wall clearly. What does seem clear is that the wooden gates have been replaced with iron-bar gates, suggesting that perhaps other changes may have been made. It was quite simple to brick up a window opening, or turn a window into a door or vice-versa - all of which may have been desired if the building's use had been changed over the years. And did Hutchinson provide documented evidence as to the date of his photo - could it have been taken at a later date, I wonder? At any rate, I don't mean to interfere with your research, but your concern with accuracy is laudable and I'm anxious to see the final result!

John

[richardh]

Thanks for that John. I've come to the conclusion that whatever configuration I use for the windows and whatever side I put the steps on, there will always be the argument that things are not really representative of the scene on the night of the murder in 1888. I think I'll have the steps on the same side as Jane's painting and the contemporary drawings just to keep things uniform with our current visual of the scene.

I'll just create what I think looks and seems right. The finished result will still be an 'version' of Dutfield's Yard that will be as close as possible given the passage of time.

Will have to use 'artistic license' for the stables and buildings around to the right of the yard and the back of No.42 and the toilet block etc.

Richard, I found a cropped copy of the Hutchinson photo he published for some reason, and from the narrow angle of the shot you really can't see the openings in the clubhouse wall clearly. What does seem clear is that the wooden gates have been replaced with iron-bar gates, suggesting that perhaps other changes may have been made. It was quite simple to brick up a window opening, or turn a window into a door or vice-versa - all of which may have been desired if the building's use had been changed over the years. And did Hutchinson provide documented evidence as to the date of his photo - could it have been taken at a later date, I wonder? At any rate, I don't mean to interfere with your research, but your concern with accuracy is laudable and I'm anxious to see the final result!

John

[richardh]

The Hutchinson Dutfield's Yard photo (above)... am I allowed to merge it with my photo mock-ups? Who to ask permission please?

[richardh]

Okay then, been working on Dutfield's Yard. Here's some mock-up photos showing progress so far:











I've also done a merged photo mock-up incorporating Hutchinson's Dutfield's Yard photo but I don't think I can upload it due to copyright. it looks good though!

[Dr. John Watson]

The Hutchinson Dutfield's Yard photo (above)... am I allowed to merge it with my photo mock-ups? Who to ask permission please?

Richard, I'm no expert on copyright laws, but since the owner briefly posted an uncropped version of the photo on these boards when he first found it (he subsequently removed it), then recently posted this cropped portion of the photo (which is still on-line), I'd guess it would be okay for you to use it to help with your mock-up, but if there's any doubt in your mind, the owner of the photo would be the one to check with!

John

[richardh]

Thanks John, I've emailed Phil H about it.

Richard, I'm no expert on copyright laws, but since the owner briefly posted an uncropped version of the photo on these boards when he first found it (he subsequently removed it), then recently posted this cropped portion of the photo (which is still on-line), I'd guess it would be okay for you to use it to help with your mock-up, but if there's any doubt in your mind, the owner of the photo would be the one to check with!

John

[richardh]

Dutfield's Yard 3D

Just had a look at those photo mock-ups on my work PC and they look rather dark. I might adjust the contrast/brighness and repost them later on.

[Dr. John Watson]

Just had a look at those photo mock-ups on my work PC and they look rather dark. I might adjust the contrast/brighness and repost them later on.

Excellent job on the photo mock-ups. Please do repost when you're satisfied with the lighting. Can you enlarge them? I can't imagine how you were able to obtain the views from within the yard. Is there a computer program for that???

John

[richardh]

Thanks John. I'll post up some light corrected images later and I'm working on a video which will take the viewer on a virtual walk right into and around the yard. It will be a bit rough around the edges because I need to get people's opinions on the layout/building structure of the yard before I commence the proper modelling and texturing. No good working hard on a building that's not the correct size/shape/configuration.

Excellent job on the photo mock-ups. Please do repost when you're satisfied with the lighting. Can you enlarge them? I can't imagine how you were able to obtain the views from within the yard. Is there a computer program for that???

John

[richardh]

Here is a mock-up using the online cropped Hutchinson Dutfield's Yard photo. I'm hoping I've not infringed the copyright. I did email Phil last week but I've received no reply as yet. If he objects I will remove. The image (Phil's) is the one found online on these forums and is a cropped bit from the full image.

[richardh]

Here's a screen shot with the gates in place: