What's the compelling feature?

[Jon Guy]

I would think since only Liz and BS man are left alone at approx 12:45-46, and there is no-one that we know of in the yard from 12:40 until 1:00am, he is most likely her killer. And not very likely the Ripper.

Michael

Our mutilator needs four or five minutes to mutilate. He throws Liz down when he notices Israel crossing the road looking at him, he swears at him and then BS Man notices Pipeman ( everyone has this wrong - Pipeman is on the same side as the Club) walking away too.

BS Man simply realises he does not have the four minutes necessary to mutilate before help arrives.

[Ben]

Trouble is there's not much time for another assailant to have murdered Stride between Schwartz's attacker, and Diemshutz's entrance

Hi Observer - It's not so much the time factor that undermines the "second attacker" proposal, but rather the unrealistic coincidence of her being attacked at the same location by two seperate attackers within minutes of eachother. Unless Schwartz lied, it's more probable than not that the man observed attacking Stride very shortly before her accepted time of death was her killer.

BS Man simply realises he does not have the four minutes necessary to mutilate before help arrives

Exactly Jon. He was possibly concerned that Schwartz and/or Pipeman would return very shortly with PC Smith, who had just recently passed the spot.

Cheers,
Ben

[c.d.]

Hi Observer - It's not so much the time factor that undermines the "second attacker" proposal, but rather the unrealistic coincidence of her being attacked at the same location by two seperate attackers within minutes of eachother. Unless Schwartz lied, it's more probable than not that the man observed attacking Stride very shortly before her accepted time of death was her killer.



Exactly Jon. He was possibly concerned that Schwartz and/or Pipeman would return very shortly with PC Smith, who had just recently passed the spot.

Cheers,
Ben

I think that we need to keep in mind that what Schwartz saw might have been the end of the BS man's interaction with Liz rather than the beginning. The "attack" might have been nothing more than a drunk harrassing a street prostitute. Par for the course. If it was the end and the BS man simply walked away after giving Liz a good cussing, there would be plenty of time for Jack to show up.

c.d.

[Ben]

Not convinced to be honest, CD. Too much of a coincidence to take on board. She wasn't harrassed. She was physically manhandled and thrown to the ground. That wasn't "par for the course". It was unusual, doubly so if it happened again a few minutes later by a different attacker in the same location. If Schwartz didn't fabricate the entire episode, overwhelming probability dictates that the man observed attacking her shortly before her death was her killer; whether he was also Jack the Ripper is another matter.

Ben

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

We don't know what Schwartz saw. We only have his take on it filtered through an interpreter. To me, there seems to be a lot of problems with the BS man as Liz's killer:

1. Motive - I don't think the BS man was Kidney so I am ruling out jealousy or some sort of lover's quarrel. I don't think robbery was the motive. So where does that leave us? Some sort of perceived insult? If so, why not cuss her out or slap her around? But the BS man instanly reaches for his knife and cuts her throat.

2. Only three small screams from Liz. That doesn't seem to indicate that she felt she was in severe danger.

3. The BS man kills Liz after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man.

4. Liz manages to hold on to the bag of cachous which does not break the whole time.

In light of these things, I tend not to see the BS man as the slam dunk that so many others do. Just my opinion.

I also don't think that a street prostitute being physically harrassed was that unusual an occurrence.


c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

None of those really count as "problems" with BS being Stride's killer. Some of them might interfere with his being Jack the Ripper, but not with his being Stride's killer. Whatever those problems may be, they pale into insigificance when we consider the inherent problem with the hugely unlikely coincidence of Stride being assaulted by two different attackers at the same location within a small space of time.

1) Motive - If he was Jack the Ripper, he intended to kill her because he derived pleasure from killing. No reason to explore any "motive" beyond that.

2. Only three small screams from Liz. That doesn't seem to indicate that she felt she was in severe danger

Not really an obstacle to BS being the killer. More likely, Liz Stride was too busy breaking her fall and trying to fend off her attacker. Either that or - possibly - she knew him and didn't expect to be killed (which could be construed as a problem with him being the ripper, but certainly not a problem as regards his being the only viable candidate for the Stride murder).

3. The BS man kills Liz after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man.

Not a problem with BS being her killer or the ripper. If the latter, he was anxious to avoid being caught on the job by a returning Schwartz with a copper in tow. By elimiminating Stride, he was also doing away with a potentially incriminating witness.

4. Liz manages to hold on to the bag of cachous which does not break the whole time.

Probably a by-product of her clenching her fists in a futile and instinctive effort to fend off her attacker. The cachous issue is far more problematic for the premise that Liz was the victim of a surprise attack.

I also don't think that a street prostitute being physically harrassed was that unusual an occurrence

Incredibly unusual if it's followed by another attack minutes later in the same location by a different attacker.

Best,

Ben

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

If she was "attacked" by the BS man seems to be the key. What if it was simply the case that Liz asked for money up front which angered him? He responds by pulling her, she pulls back and falls. He doesn't like Schwartz possibly getting ready to get involved in his business so he gives out his "Lipski" shout. He cusses Liz and moves on.

Again, this is all dependent on Schawartz's interpretation of what he saw filtered through an interpreter.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Ben,

(Re. his being seen by BS and Pipeman) Not a problem with BS being her killer or the ripper. If the latter, he was anxious to avoid being caught on the job by a returning Schwartz with a copper in tow. By elimiminating Stride, he was also doing away with a potentially incriminating witness.

...witness to what, though? Squabbling with a woman and dumping her on the floor? Hardly enough to send him to the gallows, or even to incur a prison sentence of any duration. If BS was her killer (and I have very little reason to doubt it), it's almost as if he wanted her dead. If that weren't the case, he could easily have left her alive and walked away, fearing little more than a proverbial rap on the knuckles if she later identified him.

[c.d.]

Hi Sam,

Yes, I think that is an excellent point. Of all the options available -- cussing her out, hitting her or stabbing her somewhere else in the body, the BS man (if he was her killer) took the one option that he knew would result in her death. You are right. He wanted her dead.

c.d.

[Ben]

If she was "attacked" by the BS man seems to be the key. What if it was simply the case that Liz asked for money up front which angered him? He responds by pulling her, she pulls back and falls. He doesn't like Schwartz possibly getting ready to get involved in his business so he gives out his "Lipski" shout.

Even if that was the case, CD, he's still the man most likely to have killed Liz Stride moments later for the simple reason that he was observed attacking her shortly before she was murdered. Better than positing the existence of a secondary attacker for which we have no evidence.

What you're currently coming up with are reasons to doubt that Broadshoulders was Jack the Ripper, not reasons to doubt that he killed Stride.

Hi Gareth,

...witness to what, though? Squabbling with a woman and dumping her on the floor? Hardly enough to send him to the gallows

Unless, of course, he was subsequently identified by other "ripper" witnesses and a link established. At the very least, an identification from a witness (who he could easily have disposed of) would have out paid to ripping activities for the forseeable future, something he wouldn't have wished for. But I certainly accept the point that he "wanted" her dead, even if witness identification didn't featue.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Ben,

Unless, of course, he was subsequently identified by other "ripper" witnesses and a link established.

There was absolutely no reason to bring in other "ripper" witnesses, if all he was "in" for was throwing to the pavement a woman whom he presumably knew. That is, of course, assuming that the (hypothetically surviving) Stride would have complained to the authorities, having - let's face it - only been jostled to the point of a few bruises and a muddy bum.

[Jon Guy]

Yes, I think that is an excellent point. Of all the options available -- cussing her out, hitting her or stabbing her somewhere else in the body, the BS man (if he was her killer) took the one option that he knew would result in her death. You are right. He wanted her dead.

Sam and C.D.

Didn`t Marshall`s see Stride with BS Man at 11.45, telling her that she would say anything but her prayers. Whether she passed him on for a more lucrative client at the Club, or just ditched him, it looks like he was in a foul mood when he located her ?

[perrymason]

To answer Jons earlier comments...I think since we already know that this man mutilates in plain sight of anyone at either end of the street in Buck Row, and also in Mitre where he only has minutes in between police passes...If Jack cut Liz Jack would have at the minimum started mutilations before Diemshutz is heard coming. Jack deciding against mutilating her is about as likely as her being killed by Jack in the first place.

Schwartz....he describes what to me sounds like a failed pickup by Broadshouldered Man, due to Liz pulling back when he grabs her and tries to take her into the street. At the point of her fall, she might be annoyed, but not necessarily fearful. That might explain the casual aspect of the cashous being found in her hand..

Schwartz leaves...Pipeman follows....Who is left at the scene at approximately 12:46am? Only two people were known to be there...and neither is Jack. If you want Jack for this murder...you better make a case for him hiding in the yard without being seen by anyone, and leaping on Liz after Broadshouldered Man leaves.

Cause he is not Liz, and he almost certainly is not Broadshouldered Man.

Two lone people, just outside the yard, one is killed in minutes...now c'mon folks, the answer aint that hard.

Cheers.

[Jon Guy]

To answer Jons earlier comments...I think since we already know that this man mutilates in plain sight of anyone at either end of the street in Buck Row, and also in Mitre where he only has minutes in between police passes...If Jack cut Liz Jack would have at the minimum started mutilations before Diemshutz is heard coming. Jack deciding against mutilating her is about as likely as her being killed by Jack in the first place.

Schwartz....he describes what to me sounds like a failed pickup by Broadshouldered Man, due to Liz pulling back when he grabs her and tries to take her into the street. At the point of her fall, she might be annoyed, but not necessarily fearful. That might explain the casual aspect of the cashous being found in her hand..

Schwartz leaves...Pipeman follows....Who is left at the scene at approximately 12:46am? Only two people were known to be there...and neither is Jack. If you want Jack for this murder...you better make a case for him hiding in the yard without being seen by anyone, and leaping on Liz after Broadshouldered Man leaves.

Cause he is not Liz, and he almost certainly is not Broadshouldered Man.

Two lone people, just outside the yard, one is killed in minutes...now c'mon folks, the answer aint that hard.

Cheers.

He may take risks Michael,but when he knows someone is running off to fetch the old bill... ?

[perrymason]

Sam and C.D.

Didn`t Marshall`s see Stride with BS Man at 11.45, telling her that she would say anything but her prayers. Whether she passed him on for a more lucrative client at the Club, or just ditched him, it looks like he was in a foul mood when he located her ?

Not addressed to me, but you're confusing Brown with Marshall...a much earlier sighting. Brown has essentially been overlooked since Schwartz came forward because we know that a young couple were in the area near that time, and we assume he saw them. Although Ive always thought his account....which didnt include the prayers line, was an interesting preface to a murder...a man blocking the passage of a woman by placing his arm against the wall.

Cheers