What's the compelling feature?

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

There weren't really any outstanding elements, though, Glenn. The physical attributes that might have stood out more in the well-heeled City would probably have passed unnoticed in an area where peaked caps and neckerchief were commonplace. It's far more significant if the general appearance suggests a congruity, as it does in the Schwartz/Lawende cases.

You mean, a 'general' apparence based on elements that could fit hundreds or thousands of working class men in the area, like moustach and dark clothes?
Jesus Christ...

And yes, there were outstanding features on Lawende's man, like the salt-and-pepper jacket and the red neckerchief - regardless of your theories about what would have been more commonplace or not in the City, if Lawende managed to see that the latter was red, and that the jacket was of salt-and-pepper material, then I have little doubt that Schwartz would have noticed those as well since the descriprion of 'his' man was detailed enough and he also saw the man more clearly and on closer distance than Lawende did.

Lawende hardly paid any attention to the man, and also added that he would most likely not recognise him again, but still managed to give a reasonably detailed description and notice the salt and pepper jacket and the red neckerchief.

[Christine]

perrymason-

I think you are right, cachous and flowers are a little out of place for a homeless streetwalker, but there are so many possible scenarios. She may have meant them for broad-shoulders. Perhaps she liked him, or perhaps she hated him so much she felt entitled to a mint before she did whatever she was planning on doing. And while it seems like poor money management to us to go buying mints when you have nowhere to sleep that night, poor (drunk) money management skills are a large part of what lands people on the street in the first place.

I do think that the idea of a "date" makes sense, but the date could have been with the two men, or someone in the club. And add in the the dubious claim that she knew the ripper and was hunting, and you've got yet another angle.

My point is that the cachous could fit into almost any of the scenarios people have offered for the final moments of Stride's life.

[Ben]

And yes, there were outstanding features on Lawende's man, like the salt-and-pepper jacket and the red neckerchief

Outstanding to you perhaps, but probably not nearly so outstanding to a witness who lived in an area in which sailors and dockers were much more commonplace than within the City of London. Besides, some witnesses pay more attention to clothing (Lawende) whereas others pay more attention to physical features (Schwartz). Generally speaking, they're pretty similar, with jacket, headgear, age and height suggesting a congruity.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Generally speaking, they're pretty similar, with jacket, headgear, age and height suggesting a congruity.

As I said, elements that could fit half of the male adult population in the East End. So hardly a heavy weighing parameter, is it?

[Ben]

As I said, elements that could fit half of the male adult population in the East End.

Half of the male adult population in the East End were aged 30, between 5"5' and 5"7' in height and were wearing a peaked-cap and jacket on the night of the double event? You don't think you could be exaggerating matters just a little here?

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Well, 'half' might be an exaggeration but a large section enough of the population in order to make such a description totally worthless.

All the best

[Ben]

It isn't totally worthless when we consider that two murders were committed with a short time and within a short distance of eachother. If the suspect sightings from both murders are in agreement in several key areas, that "agreement" naturally assumes a resonance.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Well, 'half' might be an exaggeration but a large section enough of the population in order to make such a description totally worthless.

I'd agree, Glenn. Lawende reported a man wearing a "cloth cap with a peak" - a very common item of headgear at the time, as may be seen from any almost any photograph of the period, such as this one:



Practically all the males are wearing such caps, and dark jackets don't seem to be too thin on the ground either. I daresay one or two of them would have been of the salt-and-pepper type, if this photo was taken in season

[Ben]

Bet they weren't all 30 and 5"6'ish though, Gareth.

Note the highly conspicious Mr. Billycock at the botton of the photograph to the right of centre.

[Sam Flynn]

Bet they weren't all 30 and 5"6'ish though, Gareth.

Clearly not, Ben - but 30 was a pretty average age, and 5'6", within the limits of eyewitness judgement, was a pretty average height. Add to that an average jacket and an average item of headgear and we're really not left with much, I'd say.

PS: I noticed Wideawake/Billycock too - nah, it can't be...

[Mitch Rowe]

Hi Mitch,

Is that what you see on Stride's crime scene: that another murder occurred less than an hour later which was most likely a Ripper murder? I hope I misunderstood you, because it'd be a bad approach if one's aim was to get an unbiased view of Stride's murder.

All the best,
Frank

What could be more unbiased than the purity of the timings? Who can change that? The Police? If its not coincidence then JTR was the one who determined the timing between the two murders. And coincidence is so utterly unlikely its like a coin landing on edge.

And thats not the ONLY thing I see. I see much more than that. But nothing that I see leads me to believe Stride was killed by anyone other than JTR.

I say...Give me a reason to doubt Strides inclusion in the "C5". I see none. Where is the story where Stride is saying anyone that she knows has been stalking her? Where are the stories about Stride having a domestic dispute with someone she knows? If I had any clue that Strides case was anything other than what most have believed for 120 years or better then I might question myself. I have nothing!

[Ben]

I noticed Wideawake/Billycock too - nah, it can't be...

And he's monitering the archway from across the street!

The age was pretty average, Gareth, but no more average than 20, 40 or 50. Same with the height, jackets etc. Jackets were commonplace, but no more so than overcoats, cutaways etc. It's just that here we're seeing the same set of "averages" crop up at both double event murders, a reality than serves to diminish the "averageness" to a degree, in my view.

All the best,
Ben

[perrymason]

I didn't reach any conclusions - I pointed out that there is conflicting evidence about Blackwell's views.

The Telegraph's version of the inquest testimony would appear to imply what you say, but the Morning Advertiser statement clearly doesn't. Nor does the Star's version of a different statement made by Blackwell.

But whatever Blackwell said, he would have been unable to distinguish - by any means available to him - between death at 1 o'clock and death at 4 minutes to 1.

Hi Chris,

Perhaps Ive not been clear about the significance of these 4 minutes I keep mentioning. Its not a simple period of time that Im noting, its a medical marker in time, 12:56am...being the latest time the senior medical man thought she was cut by.

To be fair to my contention that her killer was not interrupted, I should be able to use the mid-point of this estimated time in my argument without much dispute. Thats 12:51am. She may have been cut as early as 12:46...immediately following a witnessed altercation between the victim and an intoxicated passer by, almost on the murder scene,..or at 12:51,.....a full five minutes after Schwartz's sighting and still 9 minutes from Diemshutz....or at the very outside, she may have been cut as late as 12:56....a full 4 minutes before the horse shies.

My point being Blackwell was capable of recognizing a wound that was made less than 30 minutes before he examined the victim, and his times clearly indicate that Liz was cut before 1am. 4 minutes, 8 minutes, 6 minutes, 11 minutes, or even 14 minutes before.....it doesnt matter to me whether you use the outside times or the middle as an average...I used the worst time for me to use purposefully, to reduce arguments like these. It adds up to Liz being cut at the very latest still minutes before Diemshutz arrives.

The Medical experts opinion onsite ruled out an interruption...use whatever time you want before 12:56, but she was cut by then, as per his call. And I dont think a Senior Medical official needs to be questioned about estimating a time of death that is clearly less than 1/2 hour previous to his arrival. Well within his abilities Im sure.

Best regards.

[Sam Flynn]

The age was pretty average, Gareth, but no more average than 20, 40 or 50.

I meant statistical average, Ben - in which there is no concept of "more" or "less". I mean the most common (and therefore likely) age bracket a man would have occupied at that time. More precisely, the average age of men most likely to be found on the streets at that late hour. I'd hazard a guess that the average would have been somewhere between 30-something and 40-something, although we have no data.

The closest I can get is an average age for "Whitechapel Man" of 43 - but that's based on inmates of Whitechapel Infirmary, and is therefore somewhat skewed by some old buggers on their last legs (not to mention one or two new-born infants). I'd expect the "Whitechapel Man Out On The Streets After Midight" average age to be slightly lower.

[Chris]

Its not a simple period of time that Im noting, its a medical marker in time, 12:56am...being the latest time the senior medical man thought she was cut by.

The point I'm making is that whereas the Telegraph report does read as though Blackwell is saying that he thought Stride died more than 20 minutes before he saw her, the other two reports say quite different things.

The report in the Star says "She could not have been dead more than twenty minutes ...". That means she died less than 20 minutes before he saw her.

The report in the Morning Advertiser says "I do not think the deceased could have been dead more than twenty minutes, or at the most half an hour ..." That means she died less than 20 minutes before he saw her - or less than 30 minutes at the outside.

So you can't take as your starting point that she died more than 20 minutes before he saw her. Because the evidence about this is conflicting. So what you are claiming may or may not be true.