What's the compelling feature?

[Ben]

Hi CD,

There's no intimation in Schwartz's account that the dragging and choking took more than a few seconds, and yes, it would be very natural for Stride to clench her fists (with cachous ensconced within) and try to fend off her attacker.

Ben

[Tom_Wescott]

There was no dragging or struggle, guys.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

I wasn't talking about Schwartz's account. I was arguing against the theory that some have espoused that the BS man used Liz's scarf to drag her into the yard. But if someone is being choked, your natural reaction would be to reach up and insert your hand between the scarf and your neck in order to pull the scarf away. This requires that you form your hand into a claw shape. Could she do that and keep the cachous in her hand?

Even more telling than the fact that she had the cachous in her hand is that the bag (it was a bag, correct?) did not break. After all she went through with the BS man, that had to be one strong bag.

c.d.

[Ben]

If the bag was nestled within a balled up fist, the chances are strong that it wouldn't break no matter how strong or durable it was. The salient issue is that the presence of cahous in Stride's fist points away from a surprise attack from nowhere, not towards it. Unless, of course, the killer struck a violent blow to her neck, in which case she'd die of a cardiac arrest occasioned by the sudden compression to the carotid artery, and in that scenario she probably would have clutched the cachous.

Ben

[Tom_Wescott]

I know CD, but she wasn't dragged into the yard that way. There would have been signs and she was carefully studied for signs of a struggle or what went on. Also, the scarf was pulled to the side, and if she were dragged, it would have instead been pulled tight under her chin and left a mark there. And of course she would have been dragged on either her front or back, not her side.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jon Guy]

I didn't get a chance to do it last night, but soon I'll look at more reports from Swanson to see how/if he made usage of the terms 'pavement' and 'footway'. It could prove enlightening for our purposes here.

Hiya Tom

I would be grateful if you would look into the matter further. I do understand it`s all about interperation of the statement, a statement that has been translated . But I would be very interested in any feedback from yourself.

The footway could of course mean the pavement (sidewalk) but I noticed a definition for footway meaning " a passageway for pedestrians".

I have always read it as I stated,it makes more sense that a man attacking a woman would push her back into the darkness (where her body was to be found), and would explain why Letchford`s sister and Mortimer saw nothing.

thanks Tom

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Footway is interchangeable with pavement [GB]/sidewalk [US].

Check out references in "Press Reports".

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks for that, Simon. I hadn't thought to look in the press reports. However, I'm interested in knowing if pavement/footway were interchangeable to Swanson. If anyone can help on that today or this weekend, that would be great. I probably won't be posting again until Tuesday since my home comp is capoot.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

New Thread For Schwartz

I've started a new thread for discussion of Jon Guy's observation. It's called, oddly enough, 'Israel Schwartz Observation'.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Tom and everybody,
I remember having to get old maps from 1870 regarding a right of way that had been taken over by developers and which lay alongside an old road.On maps of 1867 a 3 foot wide "pavement" was drawn in alongside the cottages.However when we looked into it it turned out it had originally been just a "footway" for pedestrians to reach the cottages and that the pavement didnt come until 1870 when the cottages were "refurbished".They were part of an old ford built in 1790.Interestingly,the developers in the 1990"s argued that there never had been a purpose built "pavement",only a "footway" made of gravel.
But later maps that surfaced did prove there had been both a footway and a pavement -this being built in 1870 ,and which later was tarmacked over by other builders around 1950.
Sorry this is so convoluted but "footway" in this case anyway, meant a pedestrians right of way alongside a road and "pavement" meant that that pedestrians right of way was purpose built with slabs or other surfacing materials.
Another thing that everybody in the cottages learnt at this time was that the road itself was just a dusty track or dirt track with a slight layer of gravel here and there.Apparently most unimportant roads at that time were little more than dirt tracks and most "pavements" were "footways".

[perrymason]

There is of course a way that Liz Stride might have been "dragged" backwards, and yet have no traces of that or dirt on her clothing.

If Schwartz leaves at 12:45-:46, then from that moment on until 4 minutes to 1 is when she is cut. If Broadshouldered Man got hold of her scarf from behind, twisted it, and turned and started walking into the yard, pulling her backwards by her scarf, ....Liz would be backpeddling, but might remain on her feet. All that is needed at that point is a strong twist forcing her position to be facing the wall, loosing her footing, and his free hand holding the knife slicing across her throat as he drops her. Consistent with all the known evidence.

Cheers.

[Chris]

If Schwartz leaves at 12:45-:46, then from that moment on until 4 minutes to 1 is when she is cut.

I think some caution is needed before placing too much reliance on the reports (in the Daily Telegraph and elsewhere) that Blackwell testified that Stride had been dead "From twenty minutes to half an hour when I arrived."

The Morning Advertiser gives a different version:
"I do not think the deceased could have been dead more than twenty minutes, or at the most half an hour when I saw her."

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/morning_advertiser/18881003.html

The Star of 1 October quotes Blackwell as saying, before he gave this testimony:
"She could not have been dead more than twenty minutes, the body being perfectly warm."

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881001.html

Whatever precisely Blackwell said, any estimate based on body temperature could be only very approximate.

[Fisherman]

Come on, Ben! There is no need at all to speak of any omission on Swanson´s behalf, for the simple reason that Schwartz may never have been asked about that respectable or not appearance.
The fact that it was mentioned in the Star only goes to show that the reporter advanced such a question. No need to expect that Swanson and the Star utilized the same protocol when asking away, is there?

Also, if you take a second look at the Star´s article, you will notice that Schwartz said that both men (BS and Pipeman) seemed to belong to the same class of society, and that deduction would be something Schwartz arrived at by looking at the general appearance and clothing of the two men.

This second point clearly strengthens Schwartz´pointing out of BS man as a relatively respectably appearing man as being a correct estimation.

No doubt, if Swanson had taken an active interest in the general appearance of BS man and asked about it, the answers to those questions would have been in the report. The fact that they are not, suggests that the question was not put to Schwartz. And that does NOT leave us with a contradiction. Not at all! It leaves us with a pointing out of BS as looking respectable, and a further corroboration of that statement as Pipeman is described as belonging to the same level of society.

When the goods is there, and seemingly corroborated, I say that it makes pretty good sense to make use of it!

The best, Ben!
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

CD writes.
"If Liz is being pulled by the BS man by her scarf, wouldn't her natural reaction be to reach up for her scarf in order to free herself."

It would be the initial urge, I think. But if she was pulled hard, and lost her balance directly, then I believe her main interest would be to fend off her fall.

The best!
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

I honestly don't believe she was dragged for reasons I stated earlier and also because her body was found just inside the gate, so if she were dragged, it was only by a matter of inches. Also, her hand's weren't dirty as I'd expect them to be. The back and front of her clothes were also not dirty.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott