What's the compelling feature?

[Ben]

A sailor-like man is more likely to be remarked upon in the City, though, whereas dockers and sailors were commonplace in St. George-in-the-East and therefore less likely to stand out. To my mind, there's nothing to rule out the possibility that Lawende and Schwartz saw the same man, and some reasonable indicators that they did.

[perrymason]

My bet is that "Blotchy" Face would have been delighted with "Broadshouldered Man" title in retrospect.

Its an interesting comparison of suspect descriptions Roy, one Ive been privy to before, but I cannot fathom that Jack the Ripper would be in the condition Broadshouldered Man was in when he killed, nor can I imagine he would kill a woman he had just been seen assaulting. He doesnt need her silence, he needs hers, and Pipemans, and Schwartz's...killing Stride just because she saw him well doesnt address him also letting the two male witnesses leave.

Then to imagine he allows himself to be seen again with the second victim just before her death is straining credulity. He is the last man seen with Liz, and now you suggest the last man seen with Kate. In both cases the suspect seen is very probably the killer of the women due to the time remaining in their lives. That is very un-Jacklike.

This WM fellow escapes without having witnesses come forward who caught even a glimpse of his exits, and the only time that anyone is seen assaulting a soon to be victim in public is Schwartz, with his sighting of Liz Stride. Part of the aura about this fellow is his slippery management of streets and alleys....and his discretion at allowing himself to be visible.

You have an assault that takes place at 12:45am, feet from the site of the murder. The suspect involved is Broadshouldered Man....a man with an approach and manner inconsistent with what we can surmise are far less visible victim pick ups with Jack, ...and Liz is killed between 1 minute, and 11 minutes from that altercation.

I think if BS killed her, its on the shorter end of that period...if he is seen assaulting her, and the only other 2 people seen by anyone in the area at that time are gone....whats to prevent him from just pulling her back into the yard by her scarf and just slicing and dropping.

Far more likely than the appearance of a new man with mutilations on his mind, coming in straight off Berner Street, as the yard was testified to be empty from 12:40 until the pony and cart...passing Broadshouldered Man as he does I suppose. And then he gets foiled by a cart and pony at the very least 4 minutes after she is cut.

Broadshouldered Man has a very slim chance of being Jack by demeanor and manner of approach, Jack has a very slim chance of entering this scene after 12:45 and not seeing Broadshouldered Man or vice versa, and Liz has a slim chance of being a Ripper victim due to the overwhelming lack of "authoritative" Ripper activities performed on her.

Seems to me when you have a victim not likely killed by Jack, and a thug not likely to be Jack seen assaulting her within 1-10 minutes of her death at the very location, just feet away...you dont need a sudden appearance of a man who mutilates abdomens after he cuts throats....and then add that was prevented when Diemshutz cart wheels in 4 to 14 minutes after she was already cut.....that is merely creating a story where the Ripper appears...not following the evidence.

The Club members blamed Jack too..."another woman has been murdered"....so its not a new concept.

Best regards.

[Roy Corduroy]

Broadshoulders and Roundneck

The two witness descriptions broken down into physical description and apparel

Physical Description

Schwartz: age about 30 ht 5 fr 5 in comp. fair hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, had nothing in his hands.

Lawende: age 30 ht 5 ft 7 or 8 in. comp fair, fair moustache, medium build, round neck.

Apparel

Schwartz: dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak.

Lawende: pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, appearance of a sailor.

Broadshoulders and Roundneck are physically very similar.

Roy

[The Good Michael]

Glenn,

You make JTR out to be a silent, quick, cunning killer. While I lean toward the silent and quick, it is not a defined fact the way you state it. Just because someone didn't report hearing the murders doesn't mean that there wasn't noise. Many people turn their backs on noises of struggling, thinking they are domestic disputes. Still others just don't want to take the time to get involved or are afraid for themselves. Others have other things to do during the day than to go report to the police when it was only the life of an unfortunate after all, and doesn't pertain to them or their business. So, though I lean toward the silent type, Jacky may have been a hummer, a whistler, or a mouthbreather for all we know, and the women may have flailed about a bit and made a bit of noise banging against gates and the like.
Lack of witness statements of noise doesn't make it the truth.

Cheers,

Mike

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Mike,

I don't think that the Ripper was a cunnning killer, but I do think he was silent and quick. Silence and rapid speed could also be an indicator of that he was restricted of time and needed to be fast and couldn't afford any chance that the victims struggled.

I think it's reasonable to assume that he indeed was this, since the murders were incredibly silent. Especially the Nichols murder stands out as rather extraordinary in this respect.
I don't undertsnad the point about people turning a blind eye to noise in connection with a crime. In my experience, people usually do the complete opposite, and do almost everything to inject themselves into a in investigation - something Ive envountered again and ahain in connection with old crimes.

As for lack of struggling, the crime scenes acyually indicates this.
Several policemen and medical men repeatedly said that the scenes contained so signs of struggle, so it's not just based on lack of witnesses seeing anything.
I consider it to be a fact that the victims were blitz style attacked and taken by surprised, otherwise we would have seen signs of the opposite on the crime scenes.

Broadshoulders comes across as a hopeless character in this context.
Regardless of how much or little the Ripper victms struggled, I find the idea of the Ripper assaulting a woman in full view of spectators - knowing he was obeserved - and also scraming out to them as ridiculous and totally out of character.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

The two witness descriptions broken down into physical description and apparel

Physical Description

Schwartz: age about 30 ht 5 fr 5 in comp. fair hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, had nothing in his hands.

Lawende: age 30 ht 5 ft 7 or 8 in. comp fair, fair moustache, medium build, round neck.

Apparel

Schwartz: dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak.

Lawende: pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, appearance of a sailor.

Broadshoulders and Roundneck are physically very similar.

Roy

Roy,

Again: in the most striking elements that a victim would pay attention to and remember (forget facial features and physical build, which are elements that all are subject to subjective interpretation of each witness and can't be relied upon) - the Sailor Man's salt and pepper jacket and the red neckerchief - the two persons do NOT corroborate.

The other features, such as black clothing, moustache, length, physical build etc. are all very ordinary features that could fit hundreds or even thousands of men in the East End - including the peaked cap, the most common headgear among the working class.

Furthermore, the overall impression of BS was someone close to respectable in apparence while the main impression of Sailor Man was shabby.

As I see it, they are simply not describing the same man.

All the best

[The Good Michael]

I don't undertsnad the point about people turning a blind eye to noise in connection with a crime. In my experience, people usually do the complete opposite, and do almost everything to inject themselves into a in investigation - something Ive envountered again and ahain in connection with old crimes.

Glenn,

I apologize if I wasn't being clear. There is no way of telling how many people don't get involved in a crime because, as they haven't gotten involved, there is no record. I'm just saying there could be witnesses that saw and heard things who didn't come forward, and there's no way of knowing. Lack of testimony doesn't prove something. Again, I lean toward your thinking, but I could never be so emphatic as to say such and such must be the case simply because there is no record to indicate otherwise.

Cheers,

Mike

[Ben]

the Sailor Man's salt and pepper jacket and the red neckerchief - the two persons do NOT corroborate.

We don't know if they corroborated or not, Glenn, because different witnesses pick up on different features. Schwartz was picking up more on facial features, probably at the expense of a more detailed "clothing" description, whereas Lawende clearly paid more attention to the man's apparel, probably at the expense of facial features. If Schwartz had said that his man defninitely did not wear a red neckerchief, we can say they don't corroborate but they didn't. Otherwise, the age, height and clothing suggest a congruity.

Schwartz' police account, as detailed by Donald Swanson, said nothing about the broad-shouldered man having a respectable appearance. That appeared in The Star, which made other claims that were in direct contrast to the statement.

Best wishes,
Ben

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:
"Schwartz' police account, as detailed by Donald Swanson, said nothing about the broad-shouldered man having a respectable appearance. That appeared in The Star, which made other claims that were in direct contrast to the statement."

You are right there, Ben! The contradictions are many between the two. In one account he drags Liz out towards the street and throws her on the footwalk, in the other he pushes her into the passage, and she suffers no fall.
Not so on the clothing, though, since nothing is said in the police account about the general appearance of the man. Therefore I think that there is every reason to lend an ear to the Star in this particular case - it would seem odd if the "respectable" bit was just added to fit the reporter´s fancy.

The best!
Fisherman

[Ben]

Therefore I think that there is every reason to lend an ear to the Star in this particular case - it would seem odd if the "respectable" bit was just added to fit the reporter´s fancy

Not really, Fish.

At least, not as odd as a complete omission from Swanson's report of any mention of BS having a "respectable" appearance if the latter had one. It may seem strange for a reporter to invent a red moustache for the pipe-smoking man, and yet this too was in contrast to the initial report. A shabby appearence (just as a sailor-like appearance) would have stood out more in the City than Berner Street near the docks.

Best regards,
Ben

[Jon Guy]

The contradictions are many between the two. In one account he drags Liz out towards the street and throws her on the footwalk, in the other he pushes her into the passage, and she suffers no fall.

Hi Fisherman

The footway can also be mean a "passage for pedestrians".(Websters 1913)

The side of the passage that Stride was found also housed the built in door in the gate, and would have been the footway to the yard and club.

He tries to pull her into the street but turns her round and throws her on the footway.

The two accounts are the same ?

[Tom_Wescott]

Jon,

I didn't get a chance to do it last night, but soon I'll look at more reports from Swanson to see how/if he made usage of the terms 'pavement' and 'footway'. It could prove enlightening for our purposes here.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

If Liz is being pulled by the BS man by her scarf, wouldn't her natural reaction be to reach up for her scarf in order to free herself. If so, how does she manage to hold on to the cachous?

To me, the whole cachous thing indicates a quick and sudden strike and that Liz was caught completely off guard. A quite different scenario from her encounter with the BS man.

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

To me, the whole cachous thing indicates a quick and sudden strike and that Liz was caught completely off guard.

On the contrary. If she was caught off guard by a sudden strike, blind instict would cause her to relinquish the cachous, whereas if she anticipated the attack, she could have clenched her fists (with the cahous in them) to fend of her attacker if necessary.

Ben

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

Are you saying that as she is being choked and dragged she is still holding the cachous? Sorry, I can't buy that one.

c.d.