What's the compelling feature?

[Dan Norder]

Well, while some people in the FBI have made claims that are well outside of what the documentation about serial killers can support, those people certainly have made more sense more often than a good portion of the people here. And within the FBI there are different people with different levels of knowledge. I don't think we can dismiss anything said by someone connected with the FBI... and certainly not if it's being done in an attempt to replace sometimes faulty information with whatever RJ Palmer thinks up off the top of his head to try to support his Jack the Ripper suspect.

[Mitch Rowe]

Recently in Chicago a 15 year old student was shot walking to a convenience store, a couple of hours later, an 18 year old student was shot and killed walking home from classes. By the logic in the above posts, they both must have been killed by the same person.

Thats not the same as what was happening in the East End that night. People and Police were on the edge. There was no "Thug Mentality" amongst the teens of that era. In those two cases you cite the perps were probably caught. There is probably no story that could be concocted to connect the two.

What happened to Liz and Kate that night was more like what happened in the DC Sniper cases. A Man is shot and killed while mowing his lawn! Later a person is killed while pumping gas! Then a person is killed while sitting on a bench! ect..ect.. Very specific. Very atypical of the normal types of murders that happen in that area.

It looks to me like Liz was walking into one of JTRs typical traps. JTR was disturbed by Diemschutz. JTR couldnt afford to have Liz identify him. JTR assasinates Liz so quickly and so quietly Diemschutz doesnt even know whats happening.

Everything points to Liz being killed by JTR and nothing really points to Liz killed anyway else unless you believe Israel Schwartz of wich I dont believe a word he says.

[c.d.]

Hi Mitch,

Are you saying that Schwartz lied, and if so, what reason would he have for doing so? Or are you saying that he was simply mistaken in what he saw?

c.d.

[Mitch Rowe]

Hi Mitch,

Are you saying that Schwartz lied, and if so, what reason would he have for doing so? Or are you saying that he was simply mistaken in what he saw?

c.d.

I have no idea if he outright lied or was mistaken. Im saying that I cant use his testimony as any form of evidence. What he says dont make a lick of sense to me. No other witnesses came forward to confirm what he says happened. I dont believe such a ruckus on the street would go unnoticed by anyone other than Schwartz. On the other hand we have Diemschutz. He reports what he saw. His story makes sense..ect..

For the most part I dont believe a word Schwartz said and I choose to ignore his testimony.

[Roy Corduroy]

...the Schwartz scenario is dragged out to 'prove' that Stride couldn't have been killed by the Ripper because the Ripper would not have behaved that way

Would not have behaved what way?

Tom, I am only using your quote as the basis for asking my question. I understand your position.

Roy

[Jon Guy]

No other witnesses came forward to confirm what he says happened. I dont believe such a ruckus on the street would go unnoticed by anyone other than Schwartz. On the other hand we have Diemschutz. He reports what he saw. His story makes sense..ect..

Perhaps, it went unnoticed Mitch,because the actual incident took place just inside the gates and not out on the street. Schwartz and BS Man only needed two or three minutes to walk down Berner St without been seen, and the rest could have happened in the yard.

[Tom_Wescott]

Perhaps, it went unnoticed Mitch,because the actual incident took place just inside the gates and not out on the street. Schwartz and BS Man only needed two or three minutes to walk down Berner St without been seen, and the rest could have happened in the yard.

At the risk of again being chastized for misrepresenting witness evidence, allow me to point out that while Liz was standing in the gate, BS Man was on the pavement. BS Man then pulled Liz onto the pavement and toward the street before turning around and allegedly pushing Liz down. So the event did in fact occur out in the open, if it occurred at all.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jon Guy]

At the risk of again being chastized for misrepresenting witness evidence, allow me to point out that while Liz was standing in the gate, BS Man was on the pavement. BS Man then pulled Liz onto the pavement and toward the street before turning around and allegedly pushing Liz down. So the event did in fact occur out in the open, if it occurred at all.

Schwartz to Swanson : " the man tried to pull the woman into the street,but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway"

Schwartz to Star : " The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage"

No, it occured in the passageway.

[Mitch Rowe]

This account by George R Sims sort of sums up what I feel was probably goinf on with the People and Police the night Stride was killed. I dont think two people fighting anywhere could have gone without too much notice. I know if I were living there then I would be on high alert for anything unusual. Why? Because I dont want the Ripper killing one of my Sisters. The quicker the monster is taken down the better.

Oct. 21, 1888.

It is a relief to turn from this spectacle of German and English doctors playing at king of the castle on the body of the dead Kaiser to the more wholesome atmosphere of Whitechapel. Last Saturday night, having a holiday, I spent it there, in the hope that I should be able to work up a nice picturesque article, entitled "A Night with Jack the Ripper," and to wind up with the announcement that I had caught him and handed him over to justice. I have all along had the idea that it would be a magnificent advertisement for me to run "the Terror" to earth. Imagine the sensation which would be created when Monday's contents-bill displayed in huge letters, "The Whitechapel Murderer Captured by DAGONET. Fearful Struggle. Heroic Conduct of the Captor. Message from the Queen."

I cannot tell you exactly when this idea came into my mind, but I know that when it did get there it hung up its hat behind the door as though it meant to stay. It was ever present by day, and by night it haunted my dreams. A secret voice seemed to whisper to me, "Go to Whitechapel. Who knows but that you really may succeed in catching Jack!" The presentiment that I was to be the means of laying Jack by the heels and earning the gratitude of the police and the public grew so strong upon me that last Saturday night, having ascertained that Jack had sent a postcard to the authorities, informing them that he meant to do two more murders, I determined to turn amateur detective and go upon the war-path. And with this explanation of how I came to spend last Saturday night in Whitechapel, I must ask the reader to accept my assurance that every word which now follows is strictly true. It is no exaggeration - no effort of the imagination. It is a solid and sober statement of facts.

I left home at nine in the evening, dressed as a ship's engineer, accompanied by Albert Edward, who was made up as a foreign sailor. It was nearly ten when we arrived in Whitechapel, and we had no sooner turned into the murder district than we found things remarkably lively. Once or twice, as we walked along, we spotted the private detectives and amateur policemen, who were out on the same job as ourselves. Most of them eyed Albert Edward rather suspiciously, and I must confess they had reason, for a more villainous-looking foreign sailor I never saw in my life. He looked capable of all the murders that have ever been committed and a good many that haven't been thought of yet.

We had not been surveying the busy scene many minutes - what a scene Whitechapel-road is on Saturday night! - before we heard a cry, and instantly there was a rush towards a gateway. It was only two ladies quarrelling; but as we hurried up a small boy saluted us with a grin and exclaimed, "'Ere ye har, guv'nor! This way to the murder! Triple murder up this court!" There was a roar of laughter, and, the true state of the case being ascertained, the crowd dispersed.

The border line between the horrible and the grotesque has grown very fine in Whitechapel of late. There has probably been a revulsion of feeling, and the inhabitants have relieved their overstrained nerves by laughing. Certainly last Saturday night, although another murder was confidently expected, the general body of sightseers and pedestrians were making light of the matter. Along the pavement, which for many a mile is hedged with shooting-galleries and various arrangements based upon the six-throws-a-penny principle, plenty of hoarse-voiced ruffians were selling a penny puzzle in which the puzzle was to find Jack the Ripper. Jack was upon every tongue, male and female, last Saturday night. The costermonger hawking his goods dragged him in; the quack doctor assured the crowd that his marvellous medicine would cure even Jack of his evil propensities; and at the penny shows, outside which the most ghastly pictures of "the seven victims," all gashes and crimson drops were exhibited, the proprietors made many a facetious reference to the local Terror.

Just past the Pavilion Theatre we came on a gentleman who was standing in the roadway and banging on an empty bloater-box with a big stick. As soon as he had obtained an audience he delivered himself as follows:- Tennybrooze! Tennybrooze! If there's any gent as was here when I give Tennybrooze for the Seesirwitch I'd be werry much obliged if he'd come forward. I give everyone as bought my enverlope Tennybrooze when he was 20 to 1, and now I've got another enverlope 'ere what's got the winner of the Cambridge. If there's anyone as 'ears my voice ternite as was here when I give it, he'll p'raps say so. I haint Duglis 'All, and I haint Jack Dickinson, but my brother's the 'ead jockey in a big racin' stable, and my infermation's the best as money can buy, though I sell it in Whitechapel for a penny. I belong to Whitechapel, and I like to do my neighbours a good turn. I hain't Johnny the Ripper. I'm Johnny the Tipper. (Roars of laughter in the crowd.) Yus; Johnny the Tipper, what give yer Tennybrooze; and here I've got the winner of the Cambridge at 20 to 1, and it's one penny.

Johnny the Tipper then went round with his envelopes, but evidently he hadn't a racing audience, for the sale was slack, and, cursing his "blooming luck," Johnny put his hands in his pockets and took the certain winner of "the Cambridge" off with him to another pitch. I'm afraid he hadn't backed his Cesarewitch tip for himself, as he was in the last state of raggedness, and as he turned away I heard him mutter that he'd been out six hours and hadn't earned his "doss" yet.

As soon as the humours of Whitechapel had begun to pall we left the main thoroughfare, and plunged into the back streets and labyrinthine network of courts and alleys. We visited the spots where the murders were committed, and about midnight we had Buck's-row entirely to ourselves. How on earth a murder was committed here without attracting the slightest attention is a great mystery. The houses are so close to the spot - there are so many chances against a secret crime being committed - the place was such an unlikely one for a deliberate assassin to select! Albert Edward and I tried to work the murder out and get a theory, but we failed utterly. We, however, attracted attention. When we next visited Buck's-row there was not a soul in sight. We had not stopped by the gate where the murder was committed two seconds before a dozen people were about us as if by magic. Two policemen came up, goodness knows where from, and flashed their lanterns on us, and the rest of the company, who were evidently amateur watchmen, eyed us suspiciously. A few words to the constables satisfied them as to the nature of our business, and we were allowed to pass; but everywhere we went that night in the hope of dropping on Jack the Ripper we found that the police were on the alert, and that plenty of amateur detectives were hiding round the corners. From personal observation, I should say that there was not a corner of Whitechapel, no matter how obscure, that was left unwatched last Saturday night. All night long the police were about, and we saw them come again and again, and enter dark passages, and turn their bull's-eyes on to dark corners. If Jack had tried another experiment last Saturday, it would have been almost impossible for him to get away. Probably he knew it; at any rate, he didn't come near enough for any of us to put the salt upon his tail with which we were all provided.

Soon after midnight the principal thoroughfares in Whitechapel began to clear rapidly. The stalls packed up, the shops closed, and the people went to their homes. The ladies, I noticed, who were out late walked in twos and threes. At midnight we were outside a public-house not far from Mitre-square, and we noticed the men as they came out got together and walked towards home in company. One lady's pal lingered behind to talk to another lady. Her lady friend, who was waiting, called out, "Come on, Sylviar - I'm frightened! Let's git 'ome!" Sylvia replied, "All right, Liz, I'll see as Jack don't have yer." And then Sylvia came along, and, with a passing compliment to Albert Edward, joined her friend and went off. She was not at all the sort of lady whose name you would guess to be Sylvia.

We stayed in Whitechapel till three in the morning. We crept into back yards, and we hid ourselves down side streets; we adventured ourselves into some of the most lonely and desolate-looking spots it has ever been my lot to witness; but we never remained long in undisputed possession. A policeman was on to us directly. I can bear personal testimony to the marvellous vigilance exercised by Sir Charles Warren's merry men on that Saturday night at least. At three o'clock in the morning we agreed that there was no chance of getting Jack that night, and, after a little friendly converse with a policeman or two, we turned our weary steps towards home. I must confess that I was disappointed. I had quite made up my mind that Albert Edward and myself were to be heroes by Sunday morning. I had arranged it all. The moment we saw Jack, Albert Edward was to spring on him and hold him, while I went off for a policeman. I had my notebook and a freshly-sharpened lead pencil all ready to do a special there and then for Sunday's Referee. And, instead of waking up the following morning a hero, I woke up with a dreadful headache, and a fixed determination not to play at being an amateur detective again. There are too many of them about just now for the game to pay.

The papers are lively reading again. What with the Bye-bye Boss gentleman who is giving the Vigilance Committee beans - kidney beans - and the doctors who are dissecting the Emperor Frederick over and over again on our breakfast-tables, there is a rare healthy atmosphere around Press literature. A good, thorough, go-ahead non-compromising Dare-Devil Dick or Sixteen-String Jack or Sweeney Todd feuilleton is alone wanting to complete the picture.

Apropos to pictures, something like a shudder ran through society when the D.T. began to give illustrations of the late Kaiser's inside. It was felt that we were standing with trembling feet on the frontier of an unknown territory. Once let anatomical illustrations be accepted by the public as part of its breakfast-table literature, and there is no knowing to what empyrean heights or infernal depths the genius of popular journalism might not wing its flight. For days after that awful picture spoiled my breakfast, and sent me to the chemist's, I opened my D.T. with fear and trembling. I had an idea that I might come suddenly upon the "remains" of Whitehall, or fragments of Buck's-row and Mitre-square. Thank goodness, there has been no repetition of the anatomical illustration, and I understand that there is not likely to be. For which let us all be devoutly thankful.

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott, king of arrogance, writes:

"I'm not going to waste too much time on you, but Stride's left side was caked in mud, her right side was not. Her blood evidence and the blood evidence at the Chapman seen also tell us the ladies were turned to their left sides, as was Nichols and probably Eddowes"

You know what, Tom? I am going to waste whatever time it takes on YOU, in order to show where you go wrong. My generous nature compells me to.

In this case it is easy enough; there is no need whatsoever to assume that Stride was actually turned on her left side. The evidence we have suggests that she went down on that side from the outside and stayed on it, and NOT that she went down on her back to subsequently be turned on her side.
She was not turned at all, simple as that. And THAT is what can be read from the mud-plastered left side of hers. A turning over on her behalf would have set itself of in the records by reports of a mud-plastered backside too, and that evidence is not there, is it. So no twisting and turning here, Tom...

In the other cases, there is reason to believe that the victims were tilted to their sides, though there is no reason at all to believe that they were turned over totally, ending up in the kind of fetal position that Stride reached. In Chapmans case, such a position would even be nigh on impossible to reach, since there was a fence in the way, remember.

So, Tom, Stride DIFFERS markedly in her positioning, as compared to the other victims. Just like she differs in many another significant respect. And guess what? There is every reason to believe that we are looking at different killers too...

Go on, Tom - waste some time on me, and prove me wrong! It should make for good reading.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Guy is the Man!

Jon Guy,

You're really on top of your game today! I see what you're saying about Schwartz, and that's pretty smart thinking. In fact, I had to go back and look to remind myself why I thought the event occurred on the sidewalk/pavement. Here's why:

he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.

This means standing between the gate posts at the edge of the pavement (sidewalk), not in the darkness of the passageway where Schwartz would never have gotten a good look at her.

The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway

At this point Stride firmly moves into the light (what little there was) as she's pulled toward the street and thrown onto the pavement. How do I know that by 'footway' Swanson meant pavement and not passage?

On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe. The man who threw the woman down called out, apparently to the man on the oppos- ite side of the road, 'Lipski',

This suggests that from Schwartz's perspective, BS Man also saw Pipeman enter the scene and called to him. Obviously, BS Man would have had to be on the pavement, and not around the corner in the passageway, for this to be possible. So Schwartz is placing the action on the pavement.

Let me add that your argument is compelling and is giving me pause for thought on the matter.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

there is no need whatsoever to assume that Stride was actually turned on her left side. The evidence we have suggests that she went down on that side from the outside and stayed on it,

If you didn't speak in semantics so much, perhaps people would better understand what you're getting at. I agree that she likely was laid down on her left side with the Ripper's body/legs supporting her back as he slit her throat. My contention remains the same - The Ripper maneuvered them onto their left side to suit his purpose. That he did this so swiftly in the case of Stride merely supports the contention that her killer was the Ripper.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[anna]

Thanks for the brilliant read Mitch.I enjoyed every minute of the account.

[Fisherman]

Mitch Rowe writes:
"Everything points to Liz being killed by JTR"

Ehrm...no, Mitch. It does not. If you had had a picture where she was killed in a more desolate venue, had her throat cut to the bone, and was thereafter eviscerated, the killer not being seen or heard by anybody and with no witness reports recognizing any violence towards her before the strike, THEN everything would have pointed to her being killed by Jack.

But then again, surely you are familiar with all of this...?

The best, Mitch!
Fishermn

[Tom_Wescott]

Ehrm...no, Mitch. It does not. If you had had a picture where she was killed in a more desolate venue, had her throat cut to the bone, and was thereafter eviscerated, the killer not being seen or heard by anybody and with no witness reports recognizing any violence towards her before the strike, THEN everything would have pointed to her being killed by Jack.

Well, I guess we can strike Chapman off the list as well. Oops, and Eddowes too! Our job keeps getting easier and easier. Soon we can exonerate Jack on the grounds that he killed no one!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott