Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[Paddy]

Why oh Why ?

Hi GUT,

It was White who wrote about it and pipeman could have been one of the cops he mentions. It was also White that lead the street inquiry and questioned Packer.

Soon after White's death an article appeared in the "People's Journal" relating to the Whitechapel murders. It was written in the first person and tells how White and two other men had for five nights "been watching a certain alley just behind the Whitechapel Road. It could only be entered from where we had two men posted in hiding. . ."

White had come to hear the two officers latest report and "I was turning away when I saw a man coming out of the alley. He was walking quickly..." White got a good look at the man and tried to engage him in conversation without much success. As the man walked away "one of the police officers came out of the house he had been in, and walked a few paces into the darkness of the alley. 'Hello! What is this?' he cried..." The police officer had discovered "a body of a woman, and a pool of blood was streaming along the gutter from her body". White tried to catch up with the man he had seen "but he was lost to sight in the dark labyrinth of the East End mean streets."

It is just a theory so I would value some imput for and against...

Pat....................................

[Cogidubnus]

If he was a police officer why, oh why would he give an interview to the newspapers.

Pipeman didn't

All the best

Dave

[harry]

I would agree that 'Pipeman' should be considered more closely.I cannot understand that waving a pipe would be, in any way,an effective deterent in scaring off anyone,and Schwartz appeared to have been as scared of this person,as he was of getting involved with BS.

[Paddy]

Who chased who ?

Hi Dave,
I didn't say the undercover cop chased Jack away, I said that Jack ran down the street not actually after Schwartz, but to escape the man who had just tried to talk to him and who would shortly discover poor Liz.

It was White not Smith who lead the street search, just looked it up.

I just cant help thinking this was one of the many circumstances that connected Kosminski...Along with Packers "he lives around here" and Mrs Kuers bloody laundry client. Fanciful I know but it fits so well !

Plus nobody ever mentioned Pipeman.. that is so odd. Surely the press would have been straight onto that? Its so likely that the club was being watched and that could not become public knowledge !

Just found out my friends' (from Birmingham) relative lived just round corner in Boyd street, what a small world it is. (Loads of your lot too)

Pat............................

[GUT]

G'day Paddy

If he was a police officer why, oh why would he give an interview to the newspapers.

[Cogidubnus]

Oh Pat what a beautiful and provocative thought...but would an undercover cop charged with helping to crack the JTR case really go chasing off after a possible witness, rather than stay with the possible perpetrator and victim?

Mind you, if he did so utterly muff it, could the potential embarassment value explain why the Schwartz evidence, (barring the abberant Star account), was so ruthlessly publically suppressed?

All the best

Dave

[Paddy]

Pipeman

I think Pipeman was a copper undercover.....There was something written that mentioned two undercover policeman watching an alleyway. If I am right one said he had just stepped out of a house and the man stepped out of the alleyway. He said he tried to talk to the man but he disappeared.
Pipeman could have heard Liz or was just going to walk past the club.
The running Israel heard could have been Jack fleeing.
Wasnt the chap in charge who interviewed Packer the same man who's memoire mentioned the alley? Was it Smith or White? Sorry my memory is not so good for names !


Just a theory.....
Pat..................................

.

[c.d.]

I have never understood why Schwartz's veracity has to be an all or nothing proposition. In other words, he was lying or completely telling the truth. Given the fact that he came in in the middle of the movie and stayed only a minute or two and didn't understand the dialogue and complicated matters by giving his statement through an interpreter, I think the best approach is to simply take his statement as true but with a grain (or several) of salt.

Just my take on it.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

theory

Hello MB.

"Ok, silly question time .... But has anyone entertained the possibility that "Lipsky" was in fact the Pipe/knife man or assailant's name that was being called out?"

Absolutely. That was the theory of choice. FGA was able to straighten that one out by saying it was a racial slur. By the way, he tried to discover whether BSM was calling Schwartz or PM Lipski. Schwartz drew a blank.

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

G'day Moonbegger

Either explanation could be the correct interpretation.

Personally I lean towards it being equal to "Mate there's a Jewish chap there, get rid of him."

However we must remember where the term came from, ie it was a surname so it could be "Jones {Lipski}, get rid of him."

[lynn cates]

underwhelming

Hello John. Thanks.

Does someone's honesty need to be in question to make a lie possible?

As far as Abberline goes, yes, he questioned him thoroughly.

Did he try to find Pipe Man? No, but according to "The Star" story, the Lehman lads had detained one or two. The results were underwhelming.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

The police have Schwartz saying it was the man assaulting Stride who shouted "Lipsky" at the pipe-man (which makes no sense at all), whereas the Star version has than yelling it at Schwartz because he looked Jewish?

Ok , silly question time .... But has anyone entertained the possibility that "Lipsky" was in fact the Pipe/knife man or assailants name that was being called out ?

On the other hand , I do think Dr John's interpretation makes most sense .
"Schwartz saying the knife-man was "shouting out some sort of warning {"Lipsky"?] to the man with the woman." Wouldn't that interpretation make more sense (likening the assailant to the lady-killer Lipsky")

cheers

moonbegger

[Dr. John Watson]

Hello Caroline. I agree with you that the police report was more likely than "The Star" version--given Schwartz's veracity.

I recall that Abberline had spent a good bit of time taking his statement and could never get a straight answer concerning Lipski. And FGA had no journalistic axe to grind, so it was not likely dressed up.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn: Maybe I'm missing something, but when you say "given Schwartz'a veracity," where is the evidence that his honesty was in question? Was Abberline the one who took Schwartz's original police statement, or is there a report on file of a later interview? If Abberline used the same interpreter as the one Schwartz brought to the Lemon station, perhaps that could explain his initial problem with the Lipsky quote. The police have Schwartz saying it was the man assaulting Stride who shouted "Lipsky" at the pipe-man (which makes no sense at all), whereas the Star version has Schwartz saying the knife-man was "shouting out some sort of warning {"Lipsky"?] to the man with the woman." Wouldn't that interpretation make more sense (likening the assailant to the lady-killer Lipsky) than yelling it at Schwartz because he looked Jewish?

I don't think Abberline had an ax to grind with anyone (nor did the Star that I could find), but as far as Schwartz's statement goes, he seems to have devoted most of his time trying to clear up the Lipsky business. Did he spend as much time in tracking down either Stride's assailant or the pipe-man?

Still Wondering John

[moonbegger]

And remember that Maxwell was called at MJK's inquest when clearly she was not believed.

I think that's it , in a nut shell ..

moonbegger

[moonbegger]

Hello Caz ,

'The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage...'

I think the key words contained but often overlooked in the Police report are " But he turned her around " which essentially leaves us with the same scenario ? She ended up closer to where she met her death , than she did the street .

The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway

cheers

moonbegger