Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[Herlock Sholmes]

As Smith did not hear the calls for police and proceeded along Commercial Rd and then down Berner St at regulation pace, he would arrive at the yard at about 1:10, given the 1:06 time above. That means he is back after 35-37 minutes, yet he tells us that his beat takes 25-30 minutes. This should be a clue to everyone that something is not right.

As you’ve said, Smith said that his beat took 25-30 minutes. In reality we all know that a Constable’s round wasn’t a train on a track as they didn’t just walk they occasionally had to deal with issues.

I had Smith passing at 12.33-12.35 which is a) an estimation, and b) in line with what he himself said at the Inquest. Add 30 minutes to 12.35 and we get 1.05.

Smith said that Lamb and Ayliffe were there when they got to the yard which I listed at 1.06 but we don’t know how long they had been there so it could have been a matter of seconds. This would mean that Smith could have arrived at 1.06.

Which would mean that Smith’s round would have taken 31 minutes in my timeline. I can’t see an issue with that.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There ya go Wick, the forest is there when you step back a bit for a look. Its just a matter of perspective..if you believe that the members could have made some decisions based on a self protection premise, decisions that affected how they presented their stories to the authorities, then there is a storyline for you with times that are supported by multiple objective accounts, and are time sequenced viably. All the authority stated times match with these objectively stated times. If on the other hand you believe these poor innocent anarchists are being blasphemed by a suggestion of impropriety and falsehoods, then you can just use their storyline and timings. But you will only have those subjective witnesses for your timeline, their times are contradicted by not only the objective accounts but all the authorities times given as well. As Ive pointed out, clearly PC Lamb could not have heard about this event until 10 or 15 minutes after the discovery was made and people were sent for help. He said he saw Eagle at "just before 1am". If Louis arrived at 1... as he said specifically, Lamb would not be even seeing Eagle until 1:10 to 1:15. Which makes Johnson, Blackwell and Phillips also off by that much time. So why question the authorities times here? We have known anarchists.. with bad reputations with their neighbours and local police before this event,..faced with explaining how a woman came to be found murdered on their property. In the midst of an at large serial killers spree that police felt was connected with Immigrant Jews in that area. While 20 or 30 Immigrant Jews who attended the meeting...the ONLY men known to be anywhere near the crime site at the time of the murder, were still at that club.

As you have pointed out, the 2 varied factions do not work under one storyline with corresponding times that are viable. But only 1 of the above has stated times that agree with multiple objective witnesses and with all the relevant police and medical authority times, just as they were given. You can suggest changing those corroborated stated times, including the authorities times given, to make both perspectives work reasonably smoothly. Or you can select the stories that give times that are in keeping with the timelines established by the authorities stated timings. You need to change none of those times any more than by just 5 minutes....(Spooners 25 to 1 "at the gates" guess being the obstinate one among the objective accounts).

I find it ironic that the people who seem unable to accept a very reasonable and demonstrable defensive posturing by the anarchists are more than willing to accept simply discarding the times given by the authorities and multiple corroborative witnesses. Sounds more like a prejudice towards the authorities or a consensus, rather than a reasonable,viable ,functional premise.

Perhaps not all are finished looking up close at the individual trees here, and not at the forest as a whole.

I could ask more but I’d like to stick to just one question if I could, although as I’ve asked you this question numerous times in the past and I haven’t managed to elicit an answer yet I hold out little hope that you’ll it answer now.

You again use this quote concerning Lamb: “just before 1.00.”

Yet we have these:


The Telegraph: “Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road”

Daily News: “At about one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running to me, shouting”

East London Advertiser: “on Sunday morning when he was in Commercial-road, at about 1 o'clock”

Morning Advertiser: “About one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road”

The Times: “About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning“


So…on what grounds do you dismiss 4 quotes (including The Times) all saying the same thing, in favour of one that doesn’t?

[Herlock Sholmes]

There ya go Wick, the forest is there when you step back a bit for a look. Its just a matter of perspective..if you believe that the members could have made some decisions based on a self protection premise, decisions that affected how they presented their stories to the authorities, then there is a storyline for you with times that are supported by multiple objective accounts, and are time sequenced viably. All the authority stated times match with these objectively stated times. If on the other hand you believe these poor innocent anarchists are being blasphemed by a suggestion of impropriety and falsehoods, then you can just use their storyline and timings. But you will only have those subjective witnesses for your timeline, their times are contradicted by not only the objective accounts but all the authorities times given as well. As Ive pointed out, clearly PC Lamb could not have heard about this event until 10 or 15 minutes after the discovery was made and people were sent for help. He said he saw Eagle at "just before 1am". If Louis arrived at 1... as he said specifically, Lamb would not be even seeing Eagle until 1:10 to 1:15. Which makes Johnson, Blackwell and Phillips also off by that much time. So why question the authorities times here? We have known anarchists.. with bad reputations with their neighbours and local police before this event,..faced with explaining how a woman came to be found murdered on their property. In the midst of an at large serial killers spree that police felt was connected with Immigrant Jews in that area. While 20 or 30 Immigrant Jews who attended the meeting...the ONLY men known to be anywhere near the crime site at the time of the murder, were still at that club.

As you have pointed out, the 2 varied factions do not work under one storyline with corresponding times that are viable. But only 1 of the above has stated times that agree with multiple objective witnesses and with all the relevant police and medical authority times, just as they were given. You can suggest changing those corroborated stated times, including the authorities times given, to make both perspectives work reasonably smoothly. Or you can select the stories that give times that are in keeping with the timelines established by the authorities stated timings. You need to change none of those times any more than by just 5 minutes....(Spooners 25 to 1 "at the gates" guess being the obstinate one among the objective accounts).

I find it ironic that the people who seem unable to accept a very reasonable and demonstrable defensive posturing by the anarchists are more than willing to accept simply discarding the times given by the authorities and multiple corroborative witnesses. Sounds more like a prejudice towards the authorities or a consensus, rather than a reasonable,viable ,functional premise.

Perhaps not all are finished looking up close at the individual trees here, and not at the forest as a whole.

I couldn’t resist it as there’s so much to go on…I’ll ask another. You say this:

‘If Louis arrived at 1.00 as he said specifically Lamb would not be even seeing Eagle until 1:10 to 1:15’

Could you tell us which route that you think that Lamb took that caused him to have taken 10 minutes or so just to see Lamb in Commercial Road? I’m assuming that you don’t think that he stopped off on the way?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Johnston, Blackwell and Phillips tie up perfectly with Lamb arriving around 1.05.

Ayliffe calls on Johnston at 1.10 - tick
Blackwell arrives 5 minutes later, as he was in bed when called, at 1.16 - tick
Spooner said he arrived 5 mins before Lamb, so 5 mins before around 1.06 is around 1.00 - tick
Lamb said that he arrived 10 minutes before Blackwell, 1.05/1.06 - 1.16 = 10 minutes - tick
Phillips was called on at around 1.20 and got to the yard to find Blackwell there - tick.

I know…it’s too neat…it must be a plot.

[Wickerman]

...

As you can tell, you've sparked an interest in me, but that's because I'm very much data driven first before trying to interpret what it tells me. But trying to keep track of all the different individuals, the times and events they describe, and so forth, is complicated and hard to spot discrepancies from the bulk of the statements. It's easy to see how person 1 differs from person 2, but trying to work out if person 1 or 2 is the more/less reliable requires comparing them with all of the other witnesses, and that's where I think this might be a way to do that. It might not, and it might just create a visual clutter, but part of me thinks it could be very useful too. It's an empirical question, and I'm hoping to give it a go. Work is busy at the moment, so not sure how quickly I can get to it, but it is something I've got planned to try at some point.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff.
You have me intrigued.
I hope you find the time to apply your thoughts to this clock-type analysis.

[Fiver]

As Ive pointed out, clearly PC Lamb could not have heard about this event until 10 or 15 minutes after the discovery was made and people were sent for help. He said he saw Eagle at "just before 1am".

"Constable Henry Lamb, 252 H division, examined by the coroner, said: Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting." - 3 October 1888 Daily Telegraph.

"Police-constable Henry Lamb, 252 H, who said: At about one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running to me, shouting." - 3 October 1888 Daily News.

"Police-constable Henry Lamb said that on Sunday morning when he was in Commercial-road, at about 1 o'clock, two men came to him shouting out that there had been another horrible murder." - 6 October 1888 East London Advertiser.

"Police-constable Henry Lamb, 252 H, deposed - About one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running to me shouting something.' - 3 October 1888 Morning Advertiser.

"Police-constable Henry Lamb, 252 H, deposed as follows: - About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running towards me." - 3 October 1888 Times.

"Henry Lamb, police constable 252 H, deposed: - About 1 o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in the Commercial Road, between Christian Street and Batty Street. Two men came running to me, shouting something." - 6 October 1888 Newcastle Weekly Chronicle.

"Police-constable Henry Lamb, 252 H, said that on Sunday morning about one o'clock he was in Commercial-road, when two men came to him running and shouting." - 3 October 1888 Morning Post.

"The first witness called was Police-constable Henry Lamb, 252 H, who said that about one o'clock on Sunday morning last he was on duty in Commercial-road, when two men came to him." - 3 October 1888 Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Advertiser.

So one paper said "before". Seven papers said "about".

So why do you ignore the majority of newspapers?

[Fiver]

While 20 or 30 Immigrant Jews who attended the meeting...the ONLY men known to be anywhere near the crime site at the time of the murder, were still at that club.

You repeating a false statement does not make it true.

"A thorough search was made by the police of the yard and the houses in it, but no trace could be found of any person who might have committed the murder. As soon as the search was over the whole of the persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched by the police, and their clothes and hands examined by the doctors. The people were twenty-eight in number. Each was dealt with separately, and they properly accounted for themselves. The houses were inspected a second time and the occupants examined and their rooms searched. A loft close by was searched, but no trace could be found of the murderer." - Inspector Reid

"Since then the police have made a house-to-house inquiry in the immediate neighbourhood, with the result that we have been able to produce the witnesses who have appeared before the Court." - Inspector Reid

[Fiver]

We have known anarchists.. with bad reputations with their neighbours and local police before this event,..faced with explaining how a woman came to be found murdered on their property.

Stride was not murdered on the grounds of the Club, she was murdered near it in Dutfield's Yard.

"On the left side of the yard is a house, which is divided into three tenements, and occupied, I believe, by that number of families. At the end is a store or workshop belonging to Messrs. Hindley and Co., sack manufacturers." - William Wess

"I afterwards went over the cottages, the occupants of which were in bed. I was admitted by men, who came down partly dressed; all the other people were undressed. As to the waterclosets in the yard, one was locked and the other unlocked, but no one was there. There is a recess near the dust-bin." - PC Lamb

"I, however, examined the store belonging to Messrs. Hindley, sack manufacturers, but I saw nothing there." - PC Lamb

Your Jewish socialist conspiracy theory continues to make no sense. Committing perjury about when the body was found would do nothing to solve the problem of where it was found.

[Michael W Richards]

I couldn’t resist it as there’s so much to go on…I’ll ask another. You say this:

‘If Louis arrived at 1.00 as he said specifically Lamb would not be even seeing Eagle until 1:10 to 1:15’

Could you tell us which route that you think that Lamb took that caused him to have taken 10 minutes or so just to see Lamb in Commercial Road? I’m assuming that you don’t think that he stopped off on the way?

Perhaps your mistaken impression above is a hint at why I have to respond to these innocuous points. The reason Lamb would not be seeing Eagle for 10-15 minutes after the discovery is because Louis claims he arrived, checked the body, went inside to check on his wife, called upstairs for help, some men came down among them Issac K and Heschberg, they gathered round the body, they decided what to do, Issac K left as per instructions to do so by Louis or some other member, Eagle went out, and Louis went out with "Issac[s]" for help. Eagle says "I ran towards the Commercial-road, Dienishitz, the club steward, and another member going in the opposite direction down Fairclough- street. In Commercial-road I found two constables at the corner of Grove-street. I told them that a woman had been murdered in Berner-street, and they returned with me." Issac Kozebroski sees them returning and joins them.

I never questioned Lambs timing or statement to begin with. I question any humans ability to be made aware of something and seek help from someone at "just before 1", when the actual "something" hasnt yet happened.

[Michael W Richards]

You repeating a false statement does not make it true.

"A thorough search was made by the police of the yard and the houses in it, but no trace could be found of any person who might have committed the murder. As soon as the search was over the whole of the persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched by the police, and their clothes and hands examined by the doctors. The people were twenty-eight in number. Each was dealt with separately, and they properly accounted for themselves. The houses were inspected a second time and the occupants examined and their rooms searched. A loft close by was searched, but no trace could be found of the murderer." - Inspector Reid

"Since then the police have made a house-to-house inquiry in the immediate neighbourhood, with the result that we have been able to produce the witnesses who have appeared before the Court." - Inspector Reid

The point wasnt intended as opinion, perhaps I should have said "club property", and the ONLY men anywhere near that murder scene at the time were men from that property and address. Unless you know of someone not recorded or seen who was there? Oh...you must mean the Phantom Menace, now.. sadly, having deteriorated to Jack the Slicer.

Oh, and you should check where Dutfields Yard was too...in relation to Strides body just inside the gates, near the club wall.

[Michael W Richards]

Johnston, Blackwell and Phillips tie up perfectly with Lamb arriving around 1.05.

Ayliffe calls on Johnston at 1.10 - tick
Blackwell arrives 5 minutes later, as he was in bed when called, at 1.16 - tick
Spooner said he arrived 5 mins before Lamb, so 5 mins before around 1.06 is around 1.00 - tick
Lamb said that he arrived 10 minutes before Blackwell, 1.05/1.06 - 1.16 = 10 minutes - tick
Phillips was called on at around 1.20 and got to the yard to find Blackwell there - tick.

I know…it’s too neat…it must be a plot.

Eagle is sent to the police station after learning of the body, and went seeking help, and then returning with Lamb. Lamb saw Eagle at "just before 1am". That ties up perfectly with Lamb, Johnson and Blackwell and Phillips. You just moved Lambs stated time by 10 minutes. And Johnson hears of the murder, dresses, gets down to Berner Street and arrives at 1:10. Its kind of odd how you imagine no time elapses between events. Like Lamb just sees Eagle at just before 1 and somehow Johnson is now getting dressed to head down there. Without having been called about the body yet. Remarkable.

[Michael W Richards]

I could ask more but I’d like to stick to just one question if I could, although as I’ve asked you this question numerous times in the past and I haven’t managed to elicit an answer yet I hold out little hope that you’ll it answer now.

You again use this quote concerning Lamb: “just before 1.00.”

Yet we have these:


The Telegraph: “Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road”

Daily News: “At about one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running to me, shouting”

East London Advertiser: “on Sunday morning when he was in Commercial-road, at about 1 o'clock”

Morning Advertiser: “About one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road”

The Times: “About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning“


So…on what grounds do you dismiss 4 quotes (including The Times) all saying the same thing, in favour of one that doesn’t?

I suppose you interpret "about" to be incompatible with "just before". I dont. Seems both are approximating a time in relation to an upcoming time.

[Michael W Richards]

As you’ve said, Smith said that his beat took 25-30 minutes. In reality we all know that a Constable’s round wasn’t a train on a track as they didn’t just walk they occasionally had to deal with issues.

I had Smith passing at 12.33-12.35 which is a) an estimation, and b) in line with what he himself said at the Inquest. Add 30 minutes to 12.35 and we get 1.05.

Smith said that Lamb and Ayliffe were there when they got to the yard which I listed at 1.06 but we don’t know how long they had been there so it could have been a matter of seconds. (Or minutes) This would mean that Smith could have arrived at 1.06.

Which would mean that Smith’s round would have taken 31 minutes in my timeline. I can’t see an issue with that.

I wish you would listen to your own admissions. You arbitrarily set times, you havent used witness provided relevant times. The time taken to do the routes is clearly determined by secondary sources verifying where they saw them and at what times. Thankfully we have no need for your own creative schedules, they gave us their own estimates.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Perhaps your mistaken impression above is a hint at why I have to respond to these innocuous points. The reason Lamb would not be seeing Eagle for 10-15 minutes after the discovery is because Louis claims he arrived, checked the body, went inside to check on his wife, called upstairs for help, some men came down among them Issac K and Heschberg, they gathered round the body, they decided what to do, Issac K left as per instructions to do so by Louis or some other member, Eagle went out, and Louis went out with "Issac[s]" for help. Eagle says "I ran towards the Commercial-road, Dienishitz, the club steward, and another member going in the opposite direction down Fairclough- street. In Commercial-road I found two constables at the corner of Grove-street. I told them that a woman had been murdered in Berner-street, and they returned with me." Issac Kozebroski sees them returning and joins them.

I never questioned Lambs timing or statement to begin with. I question any humans ability to be made aware of something and seek help from someone at "just before 1", when the actual "something" hasnt yet happened.

From the Inquest:

“I drove into the yard, both gates being wide open. It was rather dark there. All at once my pony shied at some object on the right. I looked to see what the object was, and observed that there was something unusual, but could not tell what. It was a dark object. I put my whip handle to it, and tried to lift it up, but as I did not succeed I jumped down from my barrow and struck a match. It was rather windy, and I could only get sufficient light to see that there was some figure there. I could tell from the dress that it was the figure of a woman.
[Coroner] You did not disturb it? - No. I went into the club and asked where my wife was. I found her in the front room on the ground floor.
[Coroner] What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door. There were several members in the front room of the club, and I told them all that there was a woman lying in the yard, though I could not say whether she was drunk or dead. I then got a candle and went into the yard, where I could see blood before I reached the body.
[Coroner] Did you touch the body? - No, I ran off at once for the police.“

So, as we can see very clearly, you’ve padded out the events of that evening to make it seem that a longer time was required.

1. He drove into the yard, saw the body and prodded it with his whip.
2. He jumped down and struck a match but was hampered by the wind.
3. He went inside and found his wife on the ground floor.

These three incidents could have taken no longer than one minute but probably closer to 30 seconds.

4. He told some members in the front room about what he’d found (he didn’t go upstairs or call upstairs as you claimed)
5. He got a candle (probably from the kitchen near the back door) and went back to the yard.


So the other members are first told about the body no more than a minute or so after Louis had returned.

So either, one of the men that was in that front room dashed upstairs and told Gilleman who told Eagle, or Gilleman himself was in that front room and he himself dashed upstairs and told Eagle. Eagle then:

“I went down in a second and struck a match, when I saw a woman lying on the ground in a pool of blood, near the gates. Her feet were towards the gates, about six or seven feet from them. She was lying by the side of and facing the club wall. When I reached the body and struck the match another member was present.”
[Coroner] Did you touch the body? - “No. As soon as I struck the match I perceived a lot of blood, and I ran away and called the police.“

So the evidence clearly demonstrates that Eagle would have left to look for a Constable no more than 2 minutes after Louis returned. No one would have been walking around slowly or acting ponderously under these circumstances. Panic and speed.

Eagle would have got to Lamb around 5 minutes or so after Louis passed the clock. 1.10 - 1.15 is a gross exaggeration under the circumstances.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Eagle is sent to the police station after learning of the body, and went seeking help, and then returning with Lamb. Lamb saw Eagle at "just before 1am". That ties up perfectly with Lamb, Johnson and Blackwell and Phillips. You just moved Lambs stated time by 10 minutes. And Johnson hears of the murder, dresses, gets down to Berner Street and arrives at 1:10. It’s kind of odd how you imagine no time elapses between events. Like Lamb just sees Eagle at just before 1 and somehow Johnson is now getting dressed to head down there. Without having been called about the body yet. Remarkable.

It’s less odd than your habit of stretching out the time that it took these events to occur as if they took place under water.

I won’t respond to a point where you persist in cherrypicking the ‘just before 1am’ quote. Remember Fiver’s post. Why do you choose one and ignore six?