Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If the Schwartz incident occurred at around 12.44/12.45 why would Goldstein have seen BS man 5 minutes later?

A few minutes later, according to some theorists, JtR came along.

Fanny said that she saw Goldstein pass but we don’t know if Goldstein mentioned seeing Fanny.

That's true.

I can’t recall RD has it been proven that Leon Goldstein was a club member or is it the case that the club has been shown to have had a member called Goldstein?

Wess indicated he was a member.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

There's also a double standard going on. They insist that Schwartz be thrown out because he wasn't called as a witness. Yet the theory leans heavily on Kozebrodsky and Hershberg, who were not called as witnesses. The theory accepts Mortimer and Goldstein, who were not called as witnesses.

Who does "they" refer to?

I sense that Baxter was keen on keen on creating a coherent timeline, when it came to his summing-up of the case. Witnesses such as Schwartz, Mortimer and Packer, may have made that difficult for him, and as consequence were not called. Of course, I could be completely wrong about this.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

And when he identified Liz Strides body in front of the police he Lied according to you ? Yes ?

Hard to say. If Schwartz was an unidentified member of the club, maybe not. If he were paid actor, he probably did lie. If he killed or participated in the killing himself, he didn't lie. If he witnessed what he claimed to, but at a very different time and/or place, he didn't lie, unless he knowingly saw a different woman. There are various possible scenarios.

[JeffHamm]

Some people put a lot of weight on a single ambiguous sentence.

"The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. This prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted."

It's often presented as meaning the police did not trust Schwartz' statement. But "the man" could be referring to the man who was arrested, not Schwartz. And the doubts expressed could be those of the reporter, not the police. The sentence is vague.

What isn't vague is that the police put enough faith in Schwartz' statement that they actively searched for the men he mentioned, arrested a man who matched the description, and investigated that man.

That man not being charged is not proof that the police stopped believing Schwartz. It could mean the man showed he had an alibi and/or that Schwartz, upon seeing the man, said he was not the man he saw in Berner Street. It could even mean the man was Pipeman, confirmed Schwartz' story, but convinced the police that he was an innocent bystander with no connection to Broadshouldered man.

With the police files lost, we have no way of knowing.

Hi Fiver,

While I agree the statement is ambiguous, the fact the prisoner is being held "for inquiries" but not being charged would be consistent with the police having some doubts about the prisoner's account of himself.

But even if the doubts are with regard to Schwartz, from Abberline we know that there were aspects of Schwartz's statement the police were doubtful about (centring around the Lipski shout and to whom it was shouted, etc), but that doesn't mean the police doubted the entirety of Schwartz's statement.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

If the Schwartz incident occurred at around 12.44/12.45 why would Goldstein have seen BS man 5 minutes later?

Fanny said that she saw Goldstein pass but we don’t know if Goldstein mentioned seeing Fanny.

I can’t recall RD has it been proven that Leon Goldstein was a club member or is it the case that the club has been shown to have had a member called Goldstein?

Hi Herlock,

Given Fanny sees Goldstein, but not Schwartz, it seems to me the probable sequence would be Goldstein passes before the Schwartz incident, and Fanny has left her doorstep between Goldstein passing and before the Schwartz incident. By my reckoning, the entire Schwartz incident would require no more than 90 seconds from the time Schwartz enters Berner Street until he reaches Fairclough. And since Fanny probably when inside at or about 12:50ish, there's plenty of time before 1:00 for the Schwartz events to occur and for all concerned to have left the area before Deimshutz arrives.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

Hard to say. If Schwartz was an unidentified member of the club, maybe not. If he were paid actor, he probably did lie. If he killed or participated in the killing himself, he didn't lie. If he witnessed what he claimed to, but at a very different time and/or place, he didn't lie, unless he knowingly saw a different woman. There are various possible scenarios.

"Ifs" aren't facts and gets us nowhere , documented evidence however does at least give us something concrete to work with .

If your going to claim Schwartz lied and was dishonest you'll have to come up with something better than your speculation, gut feeling, and a bunch of "Ifs"

[NotBlamedForNothing]

"Ifs" aren't facts and gets us nowhere , documented evidence however does at least give us something concrete to work with .

If your going to claim Schwartz lied and was dishonest you'll have to come up with something better than your speculation, gut feeling, and a bunch of "Ifs"

The authenticity of Schwartz's highly dubious story is one thing, and what really happened, is another. Don't conflate the two.

[FISHY1118]

The authenticity of Schwartz's highly dubious story is one thing, and what really happened, is another. Don't conflate the two.

What evidence have you shown that someone contradicted Schwartz account of the attack on stride ?

There is "NO" other account of what "really happened" as you put it , unless you can show another version of the assault by another witness your simply making it up as you go along .

But don't worry your not the first to make that mistake .

[The Rookie Detective]

If the Schwartz incident occurred at around 12.44/12.45 why would Goldstein have seen BS man 5 minutes later?

Fanny said that she saw Goldstein pass but we don’t know if Goldstein mentioned seeing Fanny.

I can’t recall RD has it been proven that Leon Goldstein was a club member or is it the case that the club has been shown to have had a member called Goldstein?

If we consider the question..

Why did Goldstein come forward and say he was the man passing down Berner Street?

That could indicate that he was aware he had been spotted by Mortimer; maybe not directly, but in the aftermath he discovered he had been spotted and so went to Wess to get help in explaining to the police that he was in Berner Street close to the time of the murder. Because of Mortimer, it seems his hand was forced somewhat.

However, there's just something very "show and tell" about Mortimer's statement.

She specifies hearing the distinct sound of a policeman walking past on his beat, but then whilst at he door just seconds later, she doesn't then say what we would expect someone to say...

"And as I looked out I saw the policeman I had just heard walk past my door, walking down Berner Street"

The only policeman it could have been was Smith, and he had passed at least 5 minutes beforehand.

We know that it can't have been Smith because Smith saw a couple; which Mortimer doesn't.
It then begs the question....

Who did Mortimer hear? Was it a policeman?

Well if it was Smith, then she is wrong with her timings and wrong with stating how quiet and empty the street was.

But if she is right with her timing, then it seems probable that it wasn't a policeman she heard at all.

That is then backed up by the fact she doesn't follow up on her initial claim of what she heard; ergo, she doesn't say she saw the policeman she had just heard passing by moments beforehand.

But why doesn't she either confirm or deny it was a policeman?

I believe it's because she opened the door and saw another person who she thought was the policeman, but who walked heavily....

Perhaps with an awkward gait

Now...if Schwartz's account was genuine and the assault took place, then it contradicts Mortimer's claims that the street was quiet.

I have always believed that Schwartz was lying, but there is a scenario whereby he was the only one telling the truth.

Mortimer claims to have been at her door for 10 minutes and had nothing to report

Lave also says he is outside and goes as far as the street but sees or hears nothing.

But what if the likes of Mortimer were aware of the assault, but didn't tell the police for fear of reprisal from the club?

As a local, Mortimer may have been fearful of the kind of individuals that were associated with the club.

It's also interesting that in the census return, there are no first names listed for Mortimer and her family. They were not provided by Mortimer to the enumerator for some reason

Is there a scenario whereby Mortimer thinks it's a policeman, looks out and realises it isn't, then hears the assault....and simply closes her door.

Sometimes it's the witnesses who say they saw or heard nothing, that actually saw the most, but are fearful of declaring it.

The equivalent to a person who says "no comment" to every question asked to them by the police, is more likely to be guilty or know more than they're letting on.


RD

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi RD.

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat.

How distinct was the sound of the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman on his beat? Perhaps it was not much different to the sounds made by all sorts of workmen's boots. In that case, why would the witness assume that it was a policeman passing her place? This begs the question as to what Fanny actually said to the reporter. Was it...

Shortly before a quarter to one o'clock I heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing my house on his beat.

Or

Shortly before a quarter to one o'clock I heard the measured, heavy tramp of boots passing my house.

That is, did Fanny mention a policeman is relation to the sound, or did the reporter simply assume that that was what she was referring to?

This is the general problem with reports that do not quote the witness - we can never be sure that the apparent paraphrasing of the witness was faithful to the meaning of the witness's own words.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Given Fanny sees Goldstein, but not Schwartz, it seems to me the probable sequence would be Goldstein passes before the Schwartz incident, and Fanny has left her doorstep between Goldstein passing and before the Schwartz incident. By my reckoning, the entire Schwartz incident would require no more than 90 seconds from the time Schwartz enters Berner Street until he reaches Fairclough. And since Fanny probably when inside at or about 12:50ish, there's plenty of time before 1:00 for the Schwartz events to occur and for all concerned to have left the area before Deimshutz arrives.

- Jeff

Hello Jeff,

That sounds reasonable to me. And of course it would mean that Goldstein passed the open gates before there was activity in the yard - an obvious point that I should have acknowledged in my original post.

[Herlock Sholmes]

A few minutes later, according to some theorists, JtR came along.



That's true.



Wess indicated he was a member.

Cheers, unless I’m remembering incorrectly I recall the name Goldstein written somewhere and I wondered if there had been assumption that it was’ our’ Goldstein.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Cheers, unless I’m remembering incorrectly I recall the name Goldstein written somewhere and I wondered if there had been assumption that it was’ our’ Goldstein.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/witnesses/4945-wess-personal-effects#post4945

[Herlock Sholmes]

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...fects#post4945

Cheers

[Herlock Sholmes]

Now...if Schwartz's account was genuine and the assault took place, then it contradicts Mortimer's claims that the street was quiet.

I don’t think that it does though RD. I just think that it’s simply a case of Mortimer being inside when this incident occurred. I genuinely can’t understand why some see this as an issue?