Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[Herlock Sholmes]

Maybe so but my warning still stands.

c.d.

Noted c.d. Thanks.

[c.d.]

Noted c.d. Thanks.

It's a sad day when I have to be the voice of reason.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It's a sad day when I have to be the voice of reason.

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

A point that I forgot to mention which I’ll throw out to anyone. Michael is suggesting that Eagle ran into Lamb at around 12.40-12.45. Lamb himself said that it was ‘around 1.00’. I don’t know the duration of Lamb’s beat but does anyone think it feasible that at any given point, if asked, a Constable would have been 15 or 20 minutes out in his estimation of the time?

Lamb (Daily Telegraph): Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting.

Lamb wasn't on a beat; he was patrolling Commercial Road.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The question is; do we have a definite time frame in which the other couple is known to have left the vicinity of the murder site?

Well, what does the relevant newspaper report suggest?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Here is the first example. I’ve asked you several times, Fiver has done the same..never an answer though. I’ll ask again - why do you persist in quoting “just before 1.00” when this is only mentioned in one newspaper? Why do you ignore the SIX others that say ‘around 1.00’? A discovery of the body at around 1.00 (the actual discovery time not an invented one) fits exactly with Eagle meeting Lamb at ‘around 1.00’ as quoted in ALL but one newspaper…I.e around 1.05.

For sure there is cherry-picking of newspaper reports going on, but I question that 'about 1am' is the same as 'about 1:05am'. The later could refer to precisely 1:10, and by then the news of the murder had reached Leman St police station.

It's worth considering the other side of the coin. If ~1:05 is the same as ~1:00, then so is ~12:55. If Diemschitz arrived at 12:55 - and the general acceptance of both Smith's timings and the inaccuracy of clocks implies this as being a real possibility - then we get an interesting result. Had Fanny Mortimer locked up 4 or 5 minutes prior to Diemschitz arrival, and seen Goldstein a few minutes before doing so, she must see him between 12:45 and 12:50. Yet, she does not see Schwartz. The standard explanation is to have Fanny doing some late-night backyard gardening, with the kettle on in the kitchen for her husband's water bottle. A more realistic explanation is that Leon Goldstein and Israel Schwartz were identities that referred to the same man. If that were true, modern researchers would be finding it difficult to identify one of those identities in census records, and indeed they are.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff.
You have me intrigued.
I hope you find the time to apply your thoughts to this clock-type analysis.

Hi Wickerman,

I have made pretty good progress on a program to generate clock diagrams. A few bits still to code, and some details to work out as to how to create the legend, but I am hopeful I will have a working version soon. Then will see how useful it turns out to be.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

Lamb (Daily Telegraph): Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting.

Lamb wasn't on a beat; he was patrolling Commercial Road.

I wasn’t aware this happened? I thought that it was either beat or Fixed Point. Are you sure that he was only patrolling Commercial Road? The quote appears just to say where he was at the time that Eagle showed up.

[Herlock Sholmes]

For sure there is cherry-picking of newspaper reports going on, but I question that 'about 1am' is the same as 'about 1:05am'. The later could refer to precisely 1:10, and by then the news of the murder had reached Leman St police station.

It's worth considering the other side of the coin. If ~1:05 is the same as ~1:00, then so is ~12:55. If Diemschitz arrived at 12:55 - and the general acceptance of both Smith's timings and the inaccuracy of clocks implies this as being a real possibility - then we get an interesting result. Had Fanny Mortimer locked up 4 or 5 minutes prior to Diemschitz arrival, and seen Goldstein a few minutes before doing so, she must see him between 12:45 and 12:50. Yet, she does not see Schwartz. The standard explanation is to have Fanny doing some late-night backyard gardening, with the kettle on in the kitchen for her husband's water bottle. A more realistic explanation is that Leon Goldstein and Israel Schwartz were identities that referred to the same man. If that were true, modern researchers would be finding it difficult to identify one of those identities in census records, and indeed they are.

Of course when Lamb said ‘about 1.00’ it could have been 12.55 as well as 1.05 but my point was that it was far less likely to have been 12.40 or 12.45. Even a Constable who was estimating due to not having a watch would have been unlikely during his duty to have estimated 15 or 20 minutes out.

If Diemschitz arrived at around 12.55 then we still have to factor in the possibility of minor inaccuracies. Fanny’s 5 minutes might actually have been 3 for example meaning that she locked up at 12.52. Her estimated 10 minutes on the doorstep might actually have been 8 minutes meaning that she’d been on her doorstep from 12.44-12.52. The Schwartz incident could have occurred at 12.43 just before she went onto her doorstep.

My general opinion is that it’s pointless to try using times unless we can state that something that can’t possibly have happened by employing times that we can be certain of.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I wasn’t aware this happened? I thought that it was either beat or Fixed Point. Are you sure that he was only patrolling Commercial Road? The quote appears just to say where he was at the time that Eagle showed up.

Lamb: About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street.

Are these the words of a PC carefully maintaining an accurate sense of the time, so as to stay within the boundaries of his beat?

Everything about Berner St is seemingly designed to confuse and frustrate. Had Lamb been on a beat, he would have given an exact time, and that would mostly put an end to the timeline debates before they even started.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Of course when Lamb said ‘about 1.00’ it could have been 12.55 as well as 1.05 but my point was that it was far less likely to have been 12.40 or 12.45. Even a Constable who was estimating due to not having a watch would have been unlikely during his duty to have estimated 15 or 20 minutes out.

Right, those times seem impossibly early for the police to be coming into the picture. The only way the times given by Kozebrodski and Herschburg could be vaguely correct, is if there were a much longer delay in finding police than is usually supposed. Perhaps due to the men 'lingering' in the yard after the discovery, unsure of what to do. That would contradict their inquest testimony, however. On the other hand, some members seem to suppose that the denials of Wess, Eagle and Diemschitz, regarding having ever seen prostitutes at or close to the gates, was more a matter of pragmatism than honesty under oath, so why object to the possibility of a delay in commencing the search for police?

Perhaps an interesting 'curve ball' to throw at MWR, would be to ask him if he thinks the whistle mentioned by Herschburg and also Spooner (owing to Mr Harris), was a police whistle blown by a policeman, or a police whistle blown by a WVC patrolman.

If Diemschitz arrived at around 12.55 then we still have to factor in the possibility of minor inaccuracies. Fanny’s 5 minutes might actually have been 3 for example meaning that she locked up at 12.52. Her estimated 10 minutes on the doorstep might actually have been 8 minutes meaning that she’d been on her doorstep from 12.44-12.52. The Schwartz incident could have occurred at 12.43 just before she went onto her doorstep.

If I were MWR (LOL), I would point out that the 5 (or 4) minutes and the 10 minutes you refer to, comes from a report that has Mortimer going to her door immediately on hearing the passing plod of a PC's boots. Replacing the plod with the events described by Schwartz, amounts to cherry-picking that report, does it not?

Even if you argued for that interpretation, I would still be asking why a 1-minute gap necessarily precludes Fanny from noticing something unusual going on outside. After all, the commotion she heard when getting ready for bed alerted her to something having happened at the club, and how different were those sounds from the usual coming and goings on there?

Another very important point, is that the scenario you just described does not allow for any other killer than the BS man. Hello, c.d.?

My general opinion is that it’s pointless to try using times unless we can state that something that can’t possibly have happened by employing times that we can be certain of.

So, if we can't state that BS was necessarily the killer, we might require a very different timeline.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Lamb: About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street.

Are these the words of a PC carefully maintaining an accurate sense of the time, so as to stay within the boundaries of his beat?

Everything about Berner St is seemingly designed to confuse and frustrate. Had Lamb been on a beat, he would have given an exact time, and that would mostly put an end to the timeline debates before they even started.

But Smith was on a beat and he couldn’t give an exact time for when he passed. If a Constable saw a clock say every 15 or 20 minutes into his beat then there would always be a period when he was left to judge how long it had been since he’d last seen a clock which would leave plenty of room for error but we wouldn’t expect to see a Constable being out by too much.

Are you sure that Lamb was just patrolling up and down Commercial Road?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Right, those times seem impossibly early for the police to be coming into the picture. The only way the times given by Kozebrodski and Herschburg could be vaguely correct, is if there were a much longer delay in finding police than is usually supposed. Perhaps due to the men 'lingering' in the yard after the discovery, unsure of what to do. That would contradict their inquest testimony, however. On the other hand, some members seem to suppose that the denials of Wess, Eagle and Diemschitz, regarding having ever seen prostitutes at or close to the gates, was more a matter of pragmatism than honesty under oath, so why object to the possibility of a delay in commencing the search for police?

Perhaps an interesting 'curve ball' to throw at MWR, would be to ask him if he thinks the whistle mentioned by Herschburg and also Spooner (owing to Mr Harris), was a police whistle blown by a policeman, or a police whistle blown by a WVC patrolman.

For me, if we look at all of the times given whether stated or estimated and we asked ourselves which one is the likeliest to have been accurate I’d suggest Dr. Blackwell. A man with his own watch (likely of good quality) for whom time was important and so it’s likely that he adjusted it regularly (probably daily). So Blackwell checked his watch and said that he arrived at the yard at 1.16. Then we have PC Lamb estimating that Blackwell arrived 10 minutes later. So by using what was likeliest to have been the most reliable time (Blackwell’s) we place Lamb at the yard at around 1.06. Which conforms to his ‘around 1.00’ for when Eagle approached him.

We have Brown hearing the cries of murder sometime around 1.00 and Spooner saying that Lamb arrived at the yard 5 minutes after he did. Which again aligns closely with Lamb arriving at around 1.06.

So from a starting point of what was likely the most reliable time everything fits with a 1.00 discovery time followed by the known events.

If I were MWR (LOL), I would point out that the 5 (or 4) minutes and the 10 minutes you refer to, comes from a report that has Mortimer going to her door immediately on hearing the passing plod of a PC's boots. Replacing the plod with the events described by Schwartz, amounts to cherry-picking that report, does it not?

The problem is that we can’t know what she was doing inside her house at any given time and if I make a suggestion you suggest that I’m performing some strange manipulation when I’m not. People don’t always sit or stand in one position; they move around, they do stuff, they had outside loos. We can come up with any number of perhapses. Perhaps she heard BS man and thought that it was a PC. Then then did something in the house, went to the kitchen, went to the loo etc. The short incident occurred, then she went onto her doorstep.

Even if you argued for that interpretation, I would still be asking why a 1-minute gap necessarily precludes Fanny from noticing something unusual going on outside. After all, the commotion she heard when getting ready for bed alerted her to something having happened at the club, and how different were those sounds from the usual coming and goings on there?

Just because someone hears something outside it can’t mean that they must have heard everything. The commotion was just that; a commotion. The incident was just two people not making much noise.

Another very important point, is that the scenario you just described does not allow for any other killer than the BS man. Hello, c.d.?



So, if we can't state that BS was necessarily the killer, we might require a very different timeline.

I wouldn’t rigidly adhere to any particular version.

[Fiver]

Lamb: About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street.

Are these the words of a PC carefully maintaining an accurate sense of the time, so as to stay within the boundaries of his beat?

Everything about Berner St is seemingly designed to confuse and frustrate. Had Lamb been on a beat, he would have given an exact time, and that would mostly put an end to the timeline debates before they even started.

Nowhere does Lamb say he was not on a beat. And the records are full of beat police giving estimated times.

"My beat was past Berner- street, and would take me twenty-five minutes or half an hour to go round. I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock." - PC Smith

Either way, PC Lamb is giving a series of estimates and clearly stated "I had no watch with me."

[Michael W Richards]

Michael - I never said Spooner arrived at 12:35, in fact Ive said very plainly I believe he was off on his time. Of course he is one witness who requires estimated timing to begin with, he only knew he left the bar at midnight for certain.[*]

Me - It would be much easier if you could decide if we should allow for a margin for error or not (or if we should allow it only when you think that it favours your plot) One minute you’re saying that you’re ok with a margin for error then you say this on the Schwartz/BS man thread:

“There would be far less confusion if people were to start using the times by witnesses as the witness gave them.”

Make your mind up.


And even if you suggest that Spooner might have been 5 minutes or so ‘off’ it’s still way out and doesn’t fit with the more reliable evidence.

…

Me - If Diemschitz and Kozebrodski went for a Constable some time just after 12.40 (as claimed by Koz) how did they manage to get back to the yard at 12.35 with Spooner in tow (as per Spooner)? Or are timing errors ok when it’s suits?

Michael - First off Louis and Issac Kozebrodski did not go out together as clearly stated by Issac himself within a hour of the discovery. Of course you knew that but wrote what you wrote anyway. Like it’s ok to make up things. Issac K arrived back at the gates with Eagle and Lamb who he saw returning after searching other streets first. Louis and Issac[s], or whomever...no-one identifies this person...returns with Spooner perhaps between 12:45-12:50. Thats just five minutes different than the time Issac and Heschberg say they were alerted to the body. They came from inside the club, where there was assuredly a clock to reference. Spooner is there five or 6 minutes and Lamb, Issac K and Eagle arrive. Close to 1.[*]

Me - It’s a bit rich that you accusing me of knowingly posting something that isn’t true Michael when you continually posting Lamb as saying: “Just before 1.00,” when you’ve been told numerous times by myself and Fiver that this was only stated in one newspaper whereas in SEVEN he said “around 1.00.”

Kozebrodski: I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street.

Diemschitz: “A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me.”

So your suggestion is that just after the body was discovered both men ran to Grove Street but they didn’t because one was Kozebrodski was lying and the man that actually went was a man called Isaacs who had never been identified or is mentioned anywhere else. You think that’s believable?

…

Me - What was Koz doing in the 25 or 30 minutes or so between him returning with Diemschitz (at 12.35 according to Spooner) and meeting up with Eagle and Lamb at around 1.00?

Michael - If accuracy isnt important to you then please just preface your posts with "in my opinion". Because, as mentioned once again, Issac K did not go anywhere with Louis, he "went out at the request of Louis or some other member."....now do you remember? In his own words? Issac K was called by Louis into the passageway approximately 10 minutes after Issac had returned to the club at 12:30. He went for help, and at just before 1am he sees Eagle and Lamb heading to the club.[*]

Me - I’ve already shown what Kozebrodski said and that the point that you’ve made makes no sense.

…

Me - If they returned to the yard at Spooner’s 12.35 who did Brown hear shouting ‘murder’ at around 1.00? Or is it ok to suggest that Brown have been 20 minutes or so out while it’s not ok to make the same claim in regard to Kozebrodski and Heschberg?

Michael - Brown didnt see Liz although he says he thinks he did, so what he states does warrant scrutiny, but why wouldnt people coming out when the calls were first made be shouting that kind of thing at 1? Check Lambs statement out...he saw LOTS of people there. In Louis's tale, he is the only one there at that time.[*]

Me - An attempt to dismiss anything Brown said on the basis that you think that the woman that he saw might not have been Stride isn’t valid. We have no reason to believe that he didn’t see a woman.

You suggested above that Spooner returned at 12.45-12.50 (strange that when I suggest that Heschberg and Koz were 15 and 20 minutes out in their guess you’re incredulous. Yet you’re perfectly happy to have Spooner 10-15 minutes out. But hey, who expects consistency?) This would also have meant that Diemschitz would have been shouting for a Constable as early as 12.43 which is around 20 minutes after Brown heard them. Another huge discrepancy that you appear to be willing to turn a blind eye to.

…

Me - Wouldn’t we assume that the police whistle that Heschberg heard came from close-by? Who blew it if not a PC after the body was discovered at 1.00?

Michael,- Didnt Lamb send Eagle to the station to let them know? How do you know if any police whistle means a woman is found murdered? How would he know? He heard a whistle, not that important. And I note that you think a PC blew his whistle because he was aware that a body was found at 1? Your story has people reacting to an event before 1am that not possibly know about any event because it was before the event happens..wow. And thats your Final Solution to all these timing issues?...

Me - You know very well what I’m saying. A whistle coming from nearby, which supposedly alerted Heschberg, was likely to have been from the yard. And as we know that the body was discovered at 1.00 beyond any doubt then we know that Heschberg arrived just after 1.00.

…

Michael - You continually ask a question using inaccurate information or misrepresented data and Im afraid I lose interest, so I left the balance of the questions aside.

Me - Translated as - I can’t answer your questions so I’ll pretend to be dismissive of them.

…

Michael - You use a premise that requires changing the times given by virtually every witness, but Louis. The steward of the club of anarchists who along with his wife loses his job and his dwelling if the police thought a club attendee killed Stride.

Me - Which you have no evidence for. You’ve simply imagined this to try and ‘account’ for errors in estimations of timing. It’s not legimate.

…

Michael - The steward who attacks police with a club within 6 months..in that yard, and is arrested. The steward who claims he arrived "precisely" at 1, which is certainly curious considering Lamb, a policeman whose credibility is sound and opinion unbiased, says he saw Morris Eagle looking for a policeman at "just before 1".

Me - What a surprise. The cherrypicked Lamb quote used YET AGAIN!

…

Michael - A premise that disregards evidence given by several witnesses that stated they were aware of the body at 12:40-12:45, and they were there at that time with Louis.

Me - Several? You have 2 and a half at best. Kozebrodski and Heschberg and Spooner’s laughable 12.35 which is definitively contradicted by his ‘5 minutes before Lamb.’ You think it’s credible to pick those against the 11 that say otherwise? And to do this you simply,y add the ‘well they would say that wouldn’t they’ because they were part of a plot that you don’t have a single crumb of evidence for Michael. People have been telling you this for 20 years.

…

Michael -In purely Objective terms, there is no clear timeline established using any witness statements, not even the ones you choose over others. Its not that you are incorrect when you continue to place your hands over your ears and eyes and mumble something about you solving all the issues......(was it the stolen strawberrys that finally broke you Capt Queeg?)

Me - The irony of this can escape no one.

…

Michael - In Subjective terms, the timeline I believe is usable is based on multiple corroborated accounts and details from sources without any visible bias or known nefarious reputations, and the officials times, just as they are given. There is no statement that cannot be reconciled with all the others that would require more than 5 minute deviations in the time stated. A clear timeline is established by those witnesses that begins at 12:40-12:45 and continues on to Phillips arrival at 1:30.

Me - I’ve categorically dismissed every single point that you’ve made using evidence, reason, common sense and an unbiased approach. What you have done is invented a plot purely to justify Isenschmidt as a potential killer. And you’ve spent twenty years defending a theory and you can’t name a single person other than yourself that supports it.

…

Michael -Again, your premise requires all that timing evidence to be wrong, and your paid employee evidence to be the more trustworthy, more that even the officials times. Mine requires that you have read all the evidence, you can understand the difference between a credible and unbiased source and one that is not, and can fully comprehend what youve read.

Im assuming you have read the evidence.

/////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////


Me - I’ve read the evidence. You have re-invented it. As ever I’ve responded to all of your points without exception even though you’ve ducked many of mine. So, I’ll see if you will answer one simple question in three parts:

1. Will you acknowledge that SEVEN quotes out of EIGHT have PC Lamb saying that Eagle got to him ‘around 1.00?’
2. Will you tell us why you persist in using the one quote that says ‘just before 1.00’ while ignoring the seven?
3. Why is it that you won’t accept that Kozebrodski and Heschberg were 15 and 20 minutes out but you are quite prepared to accept that PC Lamb was out by even more? He said that Dr. Blackwell arrived at the yard 10 minutes after he got there. Blackwell, by his own watch, said that he arrived at 1.16; which gets Lamb to the yard around 1.06. If you suggest that Lamb actually got to the yard at around 12.45 then his ‘10 minutes before Blackwell’ was actually ‘31 minutes before Blackwell. Which would make him 20 minutes out.

Give up.

Really not sure why you are having trouble sorting out who said what and instead you post material that is supposedly addressing posts from me, but......If you insist, Lamb can see Eagle at approximately 1. Ok? So. Now answer how Eagle got to that corner for 1am when a body hasnt yet been discovered by Louis..who again, was not seen by anyone arriving "precisely" at 1.

On Issac K and Heschberg, once again........I havent said they were off on their times at all. Not ever. They came from inside the club where a clock would have been readily available. Ive also not said that Lamb was off on his time at all.

If you had read my posts, which clearly you havent, you would see that Ive supported Issac K, Heschbergs times as is, Spooners time...with a 5 minute allowance, Lamb as is, Johnson as is, and Blackwell as is. By insisting that Louis's arrival time of 1am is the accurate time, YOURE the one who causes Lamb, Johnson and Blackwell all to be wrong. You are arguing with yourself, so please dont pretend you are using my posted comments.

Your argument has the clock beginning at 1am when Louis says he arrives, then he checks the body, then he goes inside to see his wife, then he calls upstairs, then men...including Issac K and Heschberg come down to see whats up, then the men gather around the body assessing what to do, then Louis sends Issac K, Eagle leaves and Louis and Issac[s] go for help, when they are seen by Spooner.

So...mister got this all figured out...if Louis did arrive at 1, and all that activity took place, then what is the earliest humanly possible time that Eagle could be seen by Lamb at Commercial? By the way, Lamb said he saw 2 people, and that verifys what Issac Kozebrodski said about meeting Eagle and Lamb.

10 minutes after the cart and horse pull in? I believe that is very reasonable, probably faster than when it happened too.

So, with YOUR story.....Eagle and Issac MUST HAVE MET Lamb at around 1:10, and Eagle is sent to the station to tell them around 1:15. Johnson is called, and 10 minutes later is there, 6 minutes after him is Blackwell. So, in your "Solution..." what is the estimated earliest time that would Blackwell be there?

Thats right. With you, Blackwell arrives sometime after 1:30.


What time did Blackwell say he was there?
What time did Johnson say he was there?
What time did Phillips say he was there?


With your ingenious solution all of them were wrong on their arrival times by at least 15 minutes.

With my recitation of what are the historically stated times by Issac K, Heschberg, Spooner..(allowing Spooner a 5 minute error for the reasons Ive mentioned before in the posts you either didnt read or understand),..., and Lamb, Johnson, Blackwell and Phillips, there is no need to subjectively adjust any of those times other than the 5 minutes for Spooner.

Did you understand that? YOUR story demands a severe 15 minute error in times given by the most credible witnesses there that night, Lamb, Johnson, Blackwell and Phillips. MINE doesnt require any of them to be wrong but Spooner, by 5 measly minutes. YOUR story is contradicted by the times of all those trusted witnesses, and also by Issac K, Heschberg and Spooner...whose times place the actual discovery around 12:40.

Youll note again that none of the trusted witness times need to be adjusted at all by accepting a 12:40 discovery. With my storyline.

You are the one modifying witness times, I am the one stating that the majority of the times given by witnesses do not reconcile with statements given by the anarchists paid to be at the club and who live there. Hmm. Hard to evaluate who to trust here? Maybe try the unbiased authorities before the anarchist steward and his cronies trying to cover their asses.

Also, as an added bonus, none of these stories validate anything Israel said or the time he said he saw it.

If this doesnt sink in, I give,... have your Phantom Menace, have your criminal witnesses, have Louis arrive at 1 and at the very same time Lamb see Eagle blocks away. I know your wrong, I dont have to get your agreement. Its all there on paper.

But I would ask that if you decide to question anything I post, please use what I actually said instead of what you normally do.