How Strong Did Liz Stride's Killer Need To Be?

[lynn cates]

cachous

Hello Tom.

"Cachous still in her hands."

Right. So perhaps not unconscious after all?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

disparity

Hello Jon.

"Absolutely, and given the perceived M.O. with previous victims, this issue is most important."

It is indeed. Even more so given the disparity with the first two.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

How easy do you think it is to choke someone to death with a thin scarf?

Very easy. If the scarf truly was silk it is thin and strong. Much like using a pair of womens nylons, which as you should know is a common improvisation for a garrott.

Much easier to use your hands.

But using the hands requires both strength & stamina, holding a silk scarf/garrot only requires moderate strength.
A woman could have killed Stride using this method.

And again I point out that Stride's face and neck were free from scratch marks and no blood or flesh noted under her nails. Cachous still in her hands.

All of which argues against the killer using his hands.
However, the question as to why Stride never fought back (ie; no evidence that she did), applies equally to both methods of dispatch.

Yes, it was pulled tight on the left side, which means the force was pulling up from the right side.

Gotcha!

[lynn cates]

yes

Hello Tom.

"The cut followed the line of her scarf, even nicking it, which means the scarf must have been pulled tight at the moment her throat was cut."

Absolutely. There is no other way.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

clinical trials

Hello Velma. Good question.

Not very strong. She would be lowered (slid, actually) and cut at the same time.

Easy in clinical trials. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

That much I do agree with.

You mention the killer raised her head with the scarf, but the knot was pulled tight on her left side?
She was laid down on her left side.

Yes, it was pulled tight on the left side, which means the force was pulling up from the right side.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

I don't see how you mean "extremely difficult", the killer is stood behind her, the scarf is merely an improvised garrott.

How easy do you think it is to choke someone to death with a thin scarf? Very difficult if not impossible. Much easier to use your hands. And again I point out that Stride's face and neck were free from scratch marks and no blood or flesh noted under her nails. Cachous still in her hands.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

what about height?

Thanks

He could be the same height.
The military still use garrotting, it is the great equalizer. No matter how tall, strong or heavy your opponent is, a peewee Herman can bring him down.

The scarf itself was not used to render her unconscious. This would have been extremely difficult to do and she would have struggled, yet her face and neck were not scratched nor her fingernails bloodied.

I don't see how you mean "extremely difficult", the killer is stood behind her, the scarf is merely an improvised garrott.

.....however, it's quite possible that the presence of the scarf prevented bruising on her neck from [.....................] a ligature used in choking her.

That much I do agree with.

You mention the killer raised her head with the scarf, but the knot was pulled tight on her left side?
She was laid down on her left side.

[Tom_Wescott]

Thank you, Tom,
I started this thread because of a discussion in the General Discussion area, "Blood Spray from Decapitation," and did not want to discuss the killer's strength there.

After posting this, I went back and saw discussion there that Dr. Phillips had believed Stride to be on the ground when the cut was made -- just as you have said -- and not on the way down as others have proposed. The juggling act required by that latter notion makes me ponder.

So, you think some strength in his hands, but not a great deal.

He may have been Superman, but he need not have been. He certainly wasn't weak.

I was wondering about general upper body strength -- as when a body slumps like a dead weight against you. Was that what happened with Liz? She fainted? Perhaps died of fright when grabbed?

She may very well have fainted, or perhaps even had or faked one of her 'fits' as she was known to. I believe she was robbed prior to being murdered, so she may have faked a spell in the belief she'd be robbed but unharmed. Pure speculation, of course, and not necessarily ideas I prescribe to. But possible. Also, she had a deformed leg. This is why I question where or not BS Man actually threw her down or if he simply knocked her off balance. The same might have happened with her killer in the passageway. She may even have been knocked unconscious by hitting her head upon the stone.

And, in you opinion, Would the killer needed to be as tall or taller than the victim?

If I knew for a fact how she was rendered unconscious, I could answer that. Strangulation, use of a ligature, and certainly 'garrotting' with his arm would suggest he was taller. However, since we don't know for certain what happened prior to her actual murder, there's no way to say what his height was. He was apparently stronger than Liz.

In you post you note: "What's more impressive than his strength is his skill and confidence. Whether or not the Ripper killed Stride, it's highly unlikely this was his first murder.

His skill, confidence and brazen daring are some of the reasons I believe Stride to have been a Ripper victim.

But and however, could his skill not have come as a butcher, which I think would also provide the necessary strength, or cats meat man, or someone else accustomed to simply cutting meat, not necessarily in the slaughter of animals or people?

The skill, perhaps, but not the confidence or presence of mind to have successfully subdued a woman, got her to the ground, and murdered her with one cut in almost pitch blackness. A less confident killer, regardless of skill, would have repeatedly stabbed or cut at her to make sure she was dead.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi all. I believe the scarf was used only because it was there and was necessary to lift her neck from the stone. It was not to keep blood flow away from him. That was achieved by turning her to her left side. Had she been lying on a flat surface, such as Eddowes and the others, the scarf would not have been necessary. He would have rolled her to her left side, reached around with his right hand, and cut her throat as he pressed down on the right side of her head, allowing for a deeper cut.

The scarf itself was not used to render her unconscious. This would have been extremely difficult to do and she would have struggled, yet her face and neck were not scratched nor her fingernails bloodied. however, it's quite possible that the presence of the scarf prevented bruising on her neck from the use of either the killer's hands or a ligature used in choking her.

As an example I'll point to the I-5 killer here in America. He used a ligature to strangle his female victims, but at points along their neck where their long hair got in the way, there was no bruising, causing portions of their neck to be free or almost free of any sign of ligature usage.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[curious]

.
This method of assault does not require a man of strong physique.

what about height?

Thanks

[Wickerman]

In fact, the primary point where there should be any debate is how he rendered Stride to unconsciousness.

Absolutely, and given the perceived M.O. with previous victims, this issue is most important.

Certainly, for the scarf to have been notably tight is suggestive that it was used to render her unconscious.
This method of assault does not require a man of strong physique.

[Observer]

Hi Curious,

In some manner Stride was rendered unconscious and laid to the ground, her head coming to rest over the makeshift gutter and her neck resting on a large stone that lined the gutter. This stone was probably an inconvenience to the killer. The cut followed the line of her scarf, even nicking it, which means the scarf must have been pulled tight at the moment her throat was cut. The stone I mentioned that was under her neck was pooled with blood which flowed from there into the gutter that still contained some rain water from earlier that evening. The blood mixed with the water making it appear that there was actually more blood than there was. This flowed along the gutter to the steps that led into the kitchen of the club.

What happened is that once Stride was on the ground, her killer used the scarf to lift her neck up from the rock in order to facilitate the blade of his knife. This would have held her steady but would not have provided a lot of stability and opposing force with which to cut deep. This is why her cut was not as deep as others, but clearly quite sufficient to kill her in one swipe. Although not reported at the inquest, there may have been a slight abrasion on the neck at the point where he withdrew the knife from her neck.

Whoever killed Stride must have possessed sufficient strength in both hands to manage this feat, but it needn't have been a great deal of strength. What's more impressive than his strength is his skill and confidence. Whether or not the Ripper killed Stride, it's highly unlikely this was his first murder.

As you observed, there are alternate scenarios available for what happened to Stride, but they are less likely than the above. In fact, the primary point where there should be any debate is how he rendered Stride to unconsciousness.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Spot on Tom.

I have always believed that the killer used Liz Sride's scarf as an aid to tilt the head while she was on the ground in order to deflect the flow of blood away from himself.

Regards

Observer

[curious]

Hi Curious,

In some manner Stride was rendered unconscious and laid to the ground, her head coming to rest over the makeshift gutter and her neck resting on a large stone that lined the gutter. This stone was probably an inconvenience to the killer. The cut followed the line of her scarf, even nicking it, which means the scarf must have been pulled tight at the moment her throat was cut. The stone I mentioned that was under her neck was pooled with blood which flowed from there into the gutter that still contained some rain water from earlier that evening. The blood mixed with the water making it appear that there was actually more blood than there was. This flowed along the gutter to the steps that led into the kitchen of the club.

What happened is that once Stride was on the ground, her killer used the scarf to lift her neck up from the rock in order to facilitate the blade of his knife. This would have held her steady but would not have provided a lot of stability and opposing force with which to cut deep. This is why her cut was not as deep as others, but clearly quite sufficient to kill her in one swipe. Although not reported at the inquest, there may have been a slight abrasion on the neck at the point where he withdrew the knife from her neck.

Whoever killed Stride must have possessed sufficient strength in both hands to manage this feat, but it needn't have been a great deal of strength. What's more impressive than his strength is his skill and confidence. Whether or not the Ripper killed Stride, it's highly unlikely this was his first murder.

As you observed, there are alternate scenarios available for what happened to Stride, but they are less likely than the above. In fact, the primary point where there should be any debate is how he rendered Stride to unconsciousness.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Thank you, Tom,
I started this thread because of a discussion in the General Discussion area, "Blood Spray from Decapitation," and did not want to discuss the killer's strength there.

After posting this, I went back and saw discussion there that Dr. Phillips had believed Stride to be on the ground when the cut was made -- just as you have said -- and not on the way down as others have proposed. The juggling act required by that latter notion makes me ponder.

So, you think some strength in his hands, but not a great deal.

I was wondering about general upper body strength -- as when a body slumps like a dead weight against you. Was that what happened with Liz? She fainted? Perhaps died of fright when grabbed?

And, in you opinion, Would the killer needed to be as tall or taller than the victim?

In you post you note: "What's more impressive than his strength is his skill and confidence. Whether or not the Ripper killed Stride, it's highly unlikely this was his first murder.

His skill, confidence and brazen daring are some of the reasons I believe Stride to have been a Ripper victim.

But and however, could his skill not have come as a butcher, which I think would also provide the necessary strength, or cats meat man, or someone else accustomed to simply cutting meat, not necessarily in the slaughter of animals or people?

And the unconscious bit -- indeed. Very strange in this instance. Any thoughts you care to share?

Again, thanks for the input.

Velma

[Boggles]

Having been on the receiving end of many a hard tackle from a scrum half or hooker i can vouch for the fact that you dont have to be particularly big to hurt someone.

In our rugby team the thinnest smallest guy was the hardest, possibly because he was picked on at school for being a short ass.

One of the witness statements (and i cant remember who it was) mentioned that she was seen on that night with a man walking along with his arm around her neck - does anyone know who the witness was by any chance?