Likely Lipski Link

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi RD.

I concurred with Debs that the burglar was not LeGrand. Nobody responded to the Schmuss piece I posted.

Yes i agree, but that section of the thread reads as though you are both ruling out post number 43 which refers to Schmuss and connecting that post with the burglar Grant.

You're making my exact point in that while you correctly ruled out burglar Grant, post number 43 which refers to the correct Le Grand (Grant) comes across as though you're dismissing him also.

That may not be the case but because the thread runs concurrently, it reads as though you've connected post 43 with the rest.

At the time it may have read differently, but for someone reading the thread for the first time, it looks like the Schmuss post no.43 has also been considered not applicable to Le Grand, but that post is a good piece of evidence that proves Le Grand was involved in some way with the investigation into both Stride and Angel, which predates the WVC.

In other words, your post is more important than was realized at the time and because of the content of posts 44 -47, it distracts from the evidence that was right in front of you all along.

As a newbie to the thread, I thought that your comment in post 47 was also referring to post 43 and that you were trying to compare post 43 with the rest of the thread. It may contribute to the reason why as you say, nobody responded to post 43.
I personally think you stumbled on a brilliant piece of evidence without necessarily realizing its significance.

I can appreciate there was a 2-week gap between posts 43 and 44, but anyone reading the thread after that time may have incorrectly put them together, whereas in reality, of course, post 43 is separate and not connected to posts 44 through 47.


RD

[jerryd]

Hi RD.

I concurred with Debs that the burglar was not LeGrand. Nobody responded to the Schmuss piece I posted.

[The Rookie Detective]

I must add that the GSG was in reference to the murder of Miriam Angel and the perceived injustice of an innocent man being hanged, and therefore Stride and Eddowes and the double event by proxy due to the location of where the piece of Eddowes clothing was placed (under the GSG) and the murder of Stride (yards away from 16 Batty Street)

I also believe that based on the maps (not confirmed) if a person were to stand at the BACK of 16 Batty Street on the TOP floor and look out the window, they MAY have had a view of the murder site of Stride in Berner Street.

I can't be sure, but that could be something else worth checking.


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

RD.

What error are you referring to on that thread?

Hi Jerry


Yes of course...


The error refers to the section of posts between...


Posts 43,44,45,46 & 47


I'm assuming you're the same JerryD on the thread, and so I hope you don't mind me highlighting it.


Your post number 43 is a newspaper article referring to a man named Grant, who burst into the home of a witness in the Lipski case. He was so threatening that the daugher of the witness had a fit and was hospitalized.

I found that same newspaper article recently when I was trying to look for a link between the Stride and Lipski case, as I believe there was more to BS man shouting "Lipski"

You were on the right track entirely, as this man Grant WAS "our" Le Grand.

The error occurred with post 44, relating to the burglar of the same name... This man WASN'T Le Grand.

The error was then inadvertently confirmed as a false truth by Debra (who I know is a legend and so my post comes from a place of respect) uploaded another piece of data on post 46 which corresponded to the burglar in post 44, ergo, the wrong man.


This is evidenced by the fact that this Charles Grant was a career burglar who stole everything imaginable from houses over the years; his M/O being burglary and theft of personal possessions and such like. This man was a thief.

However, in post 47 you concur with Debra's previous posts (45&46) and conclude that the original post that you uploaded on post 43 (which refers to the correct Le Grand) is the same man mentioned in posts 44, 45 & 46.

Therefore the relevant post IS post 43, which you initially shared.

This man's intentions were not of burglary or theft, they were to interrogate and terrorize. Remember that the reason why he burst down the door and into the home of the witness, was to FIND AND EXTRACT a German man named Schmuss, who was one of the 2 men that Israel Lipski himself accused of murdering Miriam Angel and who had conveniently disappeared shortly after the murder of Miriam.

Schmuss had in fact traveled to Birmingham and there was subsequently a witness in Birmingham who spoke about a man who had spoken of the murder to him. I have the article somewhere and will try and dig it up from my notes.

It is my opinion that Lipski was wrongfully hanged and that Miriam was instead murdered by another man or men.

Now even if that's true, the point is that at the time almost everyone believed him to be innocent, and even AFTER he confessed to the murder (only after being told that there would be no reprieve) there were many who didn't believe his confession.

And so if that was the general perception at the time, it could be said that a Jew was blamed for nothing...and of course, we all know the infamous GSG quote for the night of the Stride murder.

My hypothesis is that the murder of Stride had something to do with the previous murder of Angel, in which it's likely an innocent Jew was hanged.

Even if Lipski was the killer, the point is that the general public STILL believed him to be innocent and THAT is important when looking at potential motives for the murders.

And so, going back to our man Le Grand; he was referred to as "Grant" but that's not the same Charles Grant who was no more than a career burglar and thief.


And so, WHY was Le Grand (the man from your post 43 on the link you shared) looking for Schmuss? It is true that at the time, the defense lawyer for Lipski, a MR Hayward, made it his duty to search high and low for Schmuss because he knew he was a suspect and so there's a real chance that Hayward had hired Le Grand/Grant to help him search for Schmuss and so Le Grand did it the way he always did; with aggression, threats, intimidation and violence.

Typically, Schmuss WAS found, but NOT by Le Grand.

And so to summarize, I think you were really onto something important when you found that article and the fact that I subsequently found the same article in my search for a potential link to Stride and Angel, means that there is something there which absolutely warrants further investigation.

There is of course another reason why Le Grand was looking for Schmuss; because he knew more about the murder of Miriam Angel and was trying to find Schmuss to threaten him or worse.

Let's also not forget that Le Grand was proven to have threatened women with threats of murdering them in a variety of different ways, including poisoning...the same method used to murder Miriam Angel who was 6 months pregnant at the time someone poured Nitric acid down her throat.

I think it will be important to try and ascertain WHY Le Grand was looking for Schmuss as in 1887 he wasn't working (allegedly) for any kind of Vigilance Committee, because it pre-dates that.

What were Le Grand's motives in searching for Schmuss?
Was he hired by Hayward to find Schmuss?

IS it significant that Le Grand attached himself to both the murder of Miriam Angel AND Stride?

He was proven to have blackmailed and threatened witnesses to give FALSE statements...and that is why I believe that Le Grand got to Matthew Packer. I believe that Le Grand approached Packer and encouraged him to concoct a false statement.

And IF Le Grand got to Packer, he could have also got to other residents of Berner Street.


That is why the most important witness statement for the events leading up to the Stride murder is that of PC Smith, because it's statistically less likely that Le Grand had threatened an active police officer and is highly improbable.

And so, if we base our witness evidence from the night of Stride's murder with Packer's witness statement omitted, then how does that change the picture?

Packer initially saw nothing and nobody due to closing his shop early due to the heavy rain.

And after Le Grand "interviewed" him multiple times, he then came up with an entire story for the night of the murder.

Selling Grapes to a couple who stood across the road to him for over half an hour in the pouring rain.

I think that the error the Le Grand made is that by talking to Packer, he implicates himself.

This is because the primary function of Packers (Le Grand's in reality) statement, is for us to believe that Stride was with the same man for over half an hour. Why would Le Grand want to portray this?
That's because; in reality, Stride was likely murdered by a man who was with her no more than a couple of minutes and who tried to get her into the alleyway and simply cut her throat before he was disturbed.

But here's the thing... why the story of selling grapes?

Could it be that the killer saw something in Stride's left hand just after he cut her throat, but wasn't able to remove the cachous because he was disturbed...

Could the killer have mistaken the cachous for grapes? Seeing that Packer sold grapes, maybe Le Grand made a critical error.

It was also Le Grand who 'found' the stalk on the floor not far from her body. But again, this is a clear fabrication by Le Grand.

Why would Le Grand push the couple with the grapes and then supply a grape stalk?

Le Grand was proven to have threatened others at various times to embellish the truth or concoct fabricated stories, with a threat of violence and murder if he was defied.

Whether he got to Schwartz is up for debate, but I think the Packer statement was forced upon him by Le Grand, because Le Grand had an ulterior motive.

We know that IF BS man was real, he WASN'T Le Grand, because Le Grand was tall and thin and "looked German."


But I believe there's a real chance that Le Grand was present or nearby at the time Stride was murdered.

He was involved in both Angel and Stride's murders, but to what degree is up for debate.


Your article about GRANT (Le Grand) proves that he was actively involved in the Angel murder and his interrogation of Packer also proves he was involved with the murder of Stride.

The GSG was referring to STRIDE and NOT Eddowes and the reason why the killer of Eddowes deliberately placed a piece of Eddowes clothing under the GSG was his way of telling the world that he was linking Eddowes and Stride as part of the double event.


Lots to ponder



Thoughts please?


RD

[jerryd]

RD.

What error are you referring to on that thread?

[The Rookie Detective]

Here's a dissertation about Lipski: https://casebook.org/dissertations/rip-lipski.html

Great link!

Thank you kindly for taking the time to share that link with me, much appreciated.

RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi RD.

If you're interested in reading more about another link to Lipski and the Stride murder, here are a few threads I did some research.

In case you didn't know, Israel Lipski was an assumed name. His real name was Israel Lobulsk. He lived with Phillip and Leah Lipski on Batty Street. So, there was a Lipski still alive in 1888 living on Batty Street.

After looking into the Lipski poisoning case, I was able to uncover a man named Marks Rubenstein. Rubenstein's mother lived with the Lipski family on Batty Street at the time of the poisoning. Here is a thread on Marks.
Marks Rubenstein - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

There was also an attack on Mrs. Lipski. Here is a thread on that.
Assault on Mrs. Lipski - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

And here is the clipping on Grant. Post number 43.
Le Grand of the strand - General chat - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

I've looked through all those links you forwarded and they are very insightful indeed.

I did notice on the "Le Grand of the Strand" thread that there was a slight factual error in one of the posts. which then impacted the thread by incorporating that particular error as fact, and nobody on the forum seems to have noticed the error.

I am currently not a member of the other jtrforum and so I was unable to respectfully add to the thread by highlighting a key error made.

The error relates to my own findings on Charles Le Grand and which form the basis of the fact that Le Grand/Grant DID get involved with the murder of Miriam Angel over a year prior to the murder of Stride.

He can be linked to both, BUT based on the thread you sent me on the jtr forum, they appear to have overlooked that fact by mixing up some data.


RD

[Lewis C]

Here's a dissertation about Lipski: https://casebook.org/dissertations/rip-lipski.html

[c.d.]

I did chuckle at c.d. posting his rather random message directly after yours, as I always find that negative comments that miss the point of the thread merely stem from a place of jealously that someone has made more progress than they have in a comparitively short amount of time.

Hmmm....did I just get dissed here????

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi RD.

If you're interested in reading more about another link to Lipski and the Stride murder, here are a few threads I did some research.

In case you didn't know, Israel Lipski was an assumed name. His real name was Israel Lobulsk. He lived with Phillip and Leah Lipski on Batty Street. So, there was a Lipski still alive in 1888 living on Batty Street.

After looking into the Lipski poisoning case, I was able to uncover a man named Marks Rubenstein. Rubenstein's mother lived with the Lipski family on Batty Street at the time of the poisoning. Here is a thread on Marks.
Marks Rubenstein - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

There was also an attack on Mrs. Lipski. Here is a thread on that.
Assault on Mrs. Lipski - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

And here is the clipping on Grant. Post number 43.
Le Grand of the strand - General chat - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

Very much appreciated and I thank you for sharing those links.
Thank you also for the extra data you told me, I already knew his real name and that Lipski was an assumed name but the other information is new to me and so I am very grateful for your response.

Your post is an example of a post written by someone with knowledge, understanding and respect and shows what can be achieved collectively, as I do sometimes feel that some others choose to take a more sarcastic and condescending tone which merely comes across as nonsensical.

I did chuckle at c.d. posting his rather random message directly after yours, as I always find that negative comments that miss the point of the thread merely stem from a place of jealously that someone has made more progress than they have in a comparitively short amount of time.

Stride's case is linked to that of Miriam Angel and Le- Grand is the key to that.

Whether Stride was a victim of JTR is a separate point.




RD

[c.d.]

Well, I can only speak for myself but if I wanted to make some sort of statement about Lipski I would have included that word in the message I wrote. But that is just me.

c.d.

[jerryd]

Hi RD.

If you're interested in reading more about another link to Lipski and the Stride murder, here are a few threads I did some research.

In case you didn't know, Israel Lipski was an assumed name. His real name was Israel Lobulsk. He lived with Phillip and Leah Lipski on Batty Street. So, there was a Lipski still alive in 1888 living on Batty Street.

After looking into the Lipski poisoning case, I was able to uncover a man named Marks Rubenstein. Rubenstein's mother lived with the Lipski family on Batty Street at the time of the poisoning. Here is a thread on Marks.
Marks Rubenstein - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

There was also an attack on Mrs. Lipski. Here is a thread on that.
Assault on Mrs. Lipski - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

And here is the clipping on Grant. Post number 43.
Le Grand of the strand - General chat - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi all.


I originally posted this on an alternate thread "Stride Murder" (NO.416)...but it was lost among some other unrelated heated debate with a few other members.

I feel that the following warrants closer attention and scrutiny, so I have chosen to start a new thread and re-post it. I have re-edited it accordingly...

It relates to a link between the murder of Stride and that of Miriam Angel...


A thought came to me regarding BS Man who was alleged to have shouted the word "Lipski" over toward Pipe-man, just after throwing Stride to the floor.

It is often discussed whether this anti-Semitic word was aimed at Schwartz, but what if the potential recipient of the word isn't the relevant point?

What if BS man was making a statement out of frustration and Schwartz and Pipe-man just happened to be in the way?

The murder of Stride has always divided opinion as to whether she was a victim of JTR, or whether her killing was related to something else entirely.

That something else entirely could be the murder of Miriam Angel over a year earlier, which as we all know was said to have been committed by Lipski at 16 Batty Street.

As we also know, Batty Street runs parallel to Berner Street.

16 Batty Street is under a minute's walk away from the site of Stride's murder and is accessed directly by walking down the alley situated just north of the boarding school that runs between 16 Batty Street and the Public House on Batty Street situated behind the boarding school just north of the playground.

(And 16 Batty Street just a few houses south of the alleged; and well-documented "Mystery Lodger" who resided with the German landlady)

What if Stride was murdered as some kind of statement, a retaliatory attack for the events that transpired the previous year?

What if we have been looking at this from the wrong angle and it's not about trying to prove that Stride was a victim of JTR, it's more as a result of the murder of Miriam Angel the year before?

Miriam was 22...and 6 months pregnant when she was murdered and her husband was working when she was killed in her bed.

It's alleged that the man who assaulted Stride had shouted the word "LIPSKI"... I think there may be a more literal connection to the murder of Miriam Angel.

Is the murder of Stride LINKED to the previous murder of Miriam Angel?

At the time virtually everyone believed Lipski was innocent and even Lipski himself declared he was innocent, right up until the point when he heard that there would be no official reprieve from his death sentence. He then confessed and accepted his fate...


However, there were 2 other men who were around at the time of the murder who worked for Lipski and who themselves were accused by Lipski of having murdered Miriam and attempted to murder him.

One of those men was a German called Schmuss, who shortly after the murder had left the area and traveled to Birmingham. The man who defended Lipski, a Mr Hayward tried everything to find Schmuss so that he could question him about the murder...

But here's where it gets interesting and of particular relevance to the case of Stride...

Hayward it seems may sought the help of others to try and locate the elusive Schmuss and it's at this point we can make a definitive link BETWEEN the murder of both Miriam and Stride...


Now let's jump to the witnesses in the Stride case...If we recall, the witness Matthew Packer who initially told the police he hadn't seen anyone or anything because he had closed his shop early due to the heavy rain, then suddenly changed his story to remember selling grapes to a couple who stood in the rain for over half an hour across the road from his shop (meaning the couple he sold grapes to stood outside the Boarding School) before walking back over the road towards the club.

Well this alleged witness only changed his story AFTER he had been interrogated by the "private detectives" Batchelor and Le Grand, and supposedly on behalf of the Whitechapel Vigilance committee run by George Lusk and subsequently the fantasist Albert Bachert.

At the time of interviewing Packer the fruit seller, Le Grand was already a convicted criminal. He was later sent to prison for blackmail, extortion, fraud and for threatening women of wealth with threats of violence.

Le Grand was proven to have sent a number of letters to various women demanding payment of monies to him and if payment wasn't received he would seek to murder them in various ways, from explosion to "Poisoning."

Not forgetting that Miriam Angel was poisoned with Nitric Acid

And here's where it gets interesting... Le Grand has been considered a ripper suspect in the past and he is proven to have inserted himself into the murder of Stride by approaching Packer and managing to draw a statement out of him from thin air...by whatever means necessary.

BUT...Le Grand's real name was of course Charles Grant.

And it seems that Charles Grant had previously inserted himself into a previous case; the case of Miriam Angel.

I found a newspaper report that states that a man named "Grant" had burst into the home of a man who was a "witness to the murder of Miriam Angel."
The witness was so scared by Grant's actions, that he applied to the Thames Police Court to try and get a warrant for the apprehension of Grant who had burst into his office.
Grant's actions had also frightened the man's daughter to the point she had a fit and had to be taken to the London Hospital.

And the reason for Grant bursting into the man's house... he was looking for a man named SCHMUSS.


Now while there's no first name given, I would bet that the man who burst into the home of a witness to a murder, to look for a man (Schmuss) who was a suspect in the murder of Miriam Angel, is almost certainly none other than Charles Grant...or Le Grand, the same man who interrogated Packer.

There is no proof that Grant was hired by Hayward (the defense lawyer of Lipski who was adamant of his innocence) in the search for Schmuss, and it may be the case that Grant acted on his own.

Schmuss himself was always considered one of two men who murdered Miriam in her bed, robbery being their motive and Lipski interrupted them and they also tried to poison him also, but failed. The reason for Schmuss quickly leaving for Birmingham is unclear.

Now despite his last-minute confession, which was given AFTER he knew he had no chance of reprieve, there's always been an argument that the wrong man was hanged and that Schmuss and his accomplice were the real culprits...so let's apply that to the murder of Stride...

Was Stride simply the victim of being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
The husband of Miriam came home to find his wife and unborn baby murdered... did that play a part in subsequent events?
When BS man shouted "LIPSKI"...was it the actions of a man who supported Lipski and was angry that Schmuss had escaped conviction?

And of course...let's look at the double event...Eddowes was murdered and after the piece of her apron being dropped underneath the GSG...

But what if that graffiti was written by a supporter of Lipski who was essentially saying that he was a Jew who was killing women because he felt that the Jews were always being blamed...and IF the Jews are to be blamed, then they might as well be blamed for actually doing something guilty.
A statement against the hanging of Lipski.

BUT...the graffiti was said to be older and written before the night of the double event...and so by the killer of Eddowes (JTR) deliberately leaving a torn piece of her apron underneath the graffiti which may have supported Lipski, which was previously shouted by a man assaulting Stride around the corner of the murder of Miriam Angel over a year earlier...

IS that the REASON why JTR chose to drop the apron by the graffiti and form a link between the murders of Eddowes, Stride and potentially Miriam Angel?

In other words, the GSG wasn't in reference to Eddowes, it was in reference to the killing of Angel...and Stride was murdered in Berner Street in connection with Lipski being seen as wrongly convicted.

Going back to Le Grand briefly, another member on this site asked me for any evidence to connect Le Grand to any of this aside from him talking to Packer...

I believe that I have now found that link and Le Grand AKA Grant was actively looking for Schmuss.

But why?

Was he looking to apprehend Schmuss as a good citizen or did he have a different agenda?

So we have Charle Le Grand who is directly involved with the case of Stride by getting Packer to concoct a story.
And we have Grant (the same man) aggressively entering the home of a witness to the murder of Miriam Angel a year earlier, looking for Schmuss who some believe was the real murderer of Miriam Angel.


Did the killer/JTR start his killing spree because Miriam Angel was murdered and the wrong man went to the gallows?

Miriam was 6 months pregnant and her husband lost everything.

One thing is certain, BS Man was NOT Le Grand...

Le Grand was taller.

Let's not forget that Le Grand was later convicted and sent to prison shortly after the murders stopped and he was proven to have sent various letters to women with threats of murdering them in various ways if they did not give him money.

I believe I have now made a connection between the murder of Stride and the murder of Miriam Angel and that connection comes in the form of Charles Grant aka Charles Le Grand.


Now I'm anticipating that there will be some who will say that Grant and Le Grand aren't the same man, but I would disagree with that entirely.


Lots to ponder



Thoughts and feedback, please?


RD