Likely Lipski Link

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi RD.

Regarding the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee, are you aware of the strange case of the early whistle?

[Lewis C]

Hi RD.

Regarding the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee, are you aware of the strange case of the early whistle?

Hi Andrew,

I notice that in your first post in that thread, Herschberg described Stride as being 25-28, when in fact she was 44. Yet there seems little doubt that the person that he saw was in fact Stride. Maybe this tells us something about how seriously we should take witnesses' estimates of people's ages. Or maybe because Stride was dead, it's a completely different situation from estimating someone's age who's alive, in which case it tells us very little.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi RD.

Regarding the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee, are you aware of the strange case of the early whistle?

Thank you for that link; that is fascinating indeed and would indicate that there's more to the events of the night of the murder than we really understand, even after all this time.

The more we look, the more we are able to see.


RD

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

I notice that in your first post in that thread, Herschberg described Stride as being 25-28, when in fact she was 44. Yet there seems little doubt that the person that he saw was in fact Stride. Maybe this tells us something about how seriously we should take witnesses' estimates of people's ages. Or maybe because Stride was dead, it's a completely different situation from estimating someone's age who's alive, in which case it tells us very little.

Interesting thoughts and I agree we should always keep the vagaries of eyewitness accounts in mind. In this case, I think we can 'forgive' Herschberg, given the darkness and orientation of Stride against the club wall.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thank you for that link; that is fascinating indeed and would indicate that there's more to the events of the night of the murder than we really understand, even after all this time.

The more we look, the more we are able to see.


RD

Thanks RD, and I agree with that.

The initial post was too long and wordy, but I think the thread contains some interesting info and interpretation.

[Lewis C]

Interesting thoughts and I agree we should always keep the vagaries of eyewitness accounts in mind. In this case, I think we can 'forgive' Herschberg, given the darkness and orientation of Stride against the club wall.

Agreed, but I'll note that in most of the eyewitness sightings, darkness is an issue. It could be that the degree of darkness and Stride's orientation by the wall made Hershberg's view even more difficult than that of some of the other sightings. On the other hand, he probably looked at her longer than, say, Schwartz and Lawende were able to look at their suspects.

[Michael W Richards]

I did chuckle at c.d. posting his rather random message directly after yours, as I always find that negative comments that miss the point of the thread merely stem from a place of jealously that someone has made more progress than they have in a comparitively short amount of time.

Hmmm....did I just get dissed here????

c.d.

Why should I be the only one.?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Agreed, but I'll note that in most of the eyewitness sightings, darkness is an issue. It could be that the degree of darkness and Stride's orientation by the wall made Hershberg's view even more difficult than that of some of the other sightings. On the other hand, he probably looked at her longer than, say, Schwartz and Lawende were able to look at their suspects.

Hershberg seemed to know a lot and be very observant. He could the see the cachous, even claiming to know the approximate number of them. On the other hand, he said nothing about grapes. Were they real? Reading his quote, do you get the impression that he knew who Koster was? The name appears elsewhere in that edition.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thank you for that link; that is fascinating indeed and would indicate that there's more to the events of the night of the murder than we really understand, even after all this time.

The more we look, the more we are able to see.


RD

Just a point regarding that early whistle. I've always thought the idea of a man lighting a pipe was an odd detail for Schwartz to be recalling. Given names like Schwartz, Wess, and others, I was curious as to what the German translation of pipe might be. Microsoft Translator. Does 'Whistleman' have a nice ring to it?

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Just a point regarding that early whistle. I've always thought the idea of a man lighting a pipe was an odd detail for Schwartz to be recalling. Given names like Schwartz, Wess, and others, I was curious as to what the German translation of pipe might be. Microsoft Translator. Does 'Whistleman' have a nice ring to it?

Hi Andrew,

Yes, they're basically the same. It's much like the nautical use of 'pipe' to refer to the sound made by a bosun's call.

Replace pipeman with a sailor holding a bosun's whistle, which to a German is called a pipe...

A man lighting his pipe in an age when most people smoked is probably quite mundane, but it's a curious coincidence that pipe and whistle are the same in German.

[GBinOz]

Just a point regarding that early whistle. I've always thought the idea of a man lighting a pipe was an odd detail for Schwartz to be recalling. Given names like Schwartz, Wess, and others, I was curious as to what the German translation of pipe might be. Microsoft Translator. Does 'Whistleman' have a nice ring to it?

Hi Andrew,

I don't recall if any conclusion was drawn on the "Whistling in Berner St" thread, but I recall discovering that the members of the Vigilance Committee were issued with whistles. IMO the phantom early whistler was Issacs (Kozebrodski) or Jacobs when they initially discovered the body.

Cheers, George

[The Rookie Detective]

Could Pipeman have been the early whistle man who worked for the WVC?

The fact that he didn't CHASE Schwartz to try and apprehend him (with BS man putting the blame onto Schwartz for the assault on Stride and Pipeman following Schwartz) OR that he didn't apprehend BS man either, would suggest otherwise and I find it doubtful that Pipeman was one of the WVC.

Could Pipeman have whistled after Schwartz had run off but decided not to give chase and instead go back to Stride?...to either help her or kill her?

RD

[GBinOz]

Could Pipeman have been the early whistle man who worked for the WVC?

The fact that he didn't CHASE Schwartz to try and apprehend him (with BS man putting the blame onto Schwartz for the assault on Stride and Pipeman following Schwartz) OR that he didn't apprehend BS man either, would suggest otherwise and I find it doubtful that Pipeman was one of the WVC.

Could Pipeman have whistled after Schwartz had run off but decided not to give chase and instead go back to Stride?...to either help her or kill her?

RD

Hi RD,

Some innovative thinking here. Might I suggest that the whistle was used to summon the help of police constables in the area to a crime scene. I think that when Pipeman emerged from the recessed doorway of the Nelson he took a quick look and wasn't sure what was going on. Even if he was WVC, this would not be sufficient cause to be summoning help from the police force. I think he attempted to approach Schwartz to find out what might have transpired but Schwartz panicked and bolted. This is a scenario where Pipeman is an innocent bystander. If he were JtR on the prowl, he would have wanted to scare Schwartz off so he could utilise his opportunities.

Might I take this opportunity to commend your out of the box thinking, and suggest that you persevere in the face of those who may not agree with your propositions, including myself.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Could Pipeman have been the early whistle man who worked for the WVC?

Only if Schwartz misinterpreted what he was told to say.

[Michael W Richards]

Could Pipeman have been the early whistle man who worked for the WVC?

The fact that he didn't CHASE Schwartz to try and apprehend him (with BS man putting the blame onto Schwartz for the assault on Stride and Pipeman following Schwartz) OR that he didn't apprehend BS man either, would suggest otherwise and I find it doubtful that Pipeman was one of the WVC.

Could Pipeman have whistled after Schwartz had run off but decided not to give chase and instead go back to Stride?...to either help her or kill her?

RD

That is an interesting suggestion. As was discussed a while back I dont believe that there was any pub on Berner street near the club, and the story suggest that Pipeman was standing outside a pub. The only place Im aware of that was still serving beer to patrons, at that time, on that night, was the club. Might be a connection there.

Im wondering how many of these witnesses actually had a direct link with the club. Goldstein? Yes. Schwartz? He knew Wess from a few years earlier in Paris, member..?Pipeman? What about this BSM fella, could he be hired security for that night? The original speaker was to be William Morris, a rather polarizing figure at the time in the Socialist community in London. He had declined to speak at the club when asked by Wess stating in a letter to Wess that his version of what a Socialist was was quite different than what he believed the values espoused at that club represented. He used the term Anarchists himself, which is not what he spoke about when discussing Socialism. Interesting sidenote, that letter surfaced on an Antique Roadshow episode.

The club had hired security when they originally had asked him to speak on that night, perhaps they were unable to cancel them.

Question....if it can be determined that these witnesses were members or attendees that night, how would we percieve their statements? Ive suggested here for years...and taken untold amounts of venom for it....that the paid staff members there at the time would have concerns that the club or an attendee was thought to have killed Stride. She is on their property, they are Immigrant Jews, who Anderson claimed the killer had been "ascertained" to be after door to door searches in September while he was in Paris. Seems like they should have had some concerns about possible repercussions, for the club and perhaps any Immigrant Jews in the area. Might also illuminate the rationale for erasing the GSG.

Interesting.