Liz Stride Medical Evidence

[Fleetwood Mac]

'Thought I'd start a new thread on this.

I appreciate people have their opinions in terms of the witnesses and so on, and that is being discussed on another thread.

What about the medical evidence alone? What does it suggest?

According to Dr Blackwell, this was a comparatively slow death. That being the case, Liz wouldn't have been dying silently: she would have been spluttering and gurgling. How did say Louis Diemschutz happen upon a Liz who had just been killed but wasn't dying 'comparatively slowly'?

On the other hand, Dr Phillips' testimony adds this: the cause of death had been undoubtedly the loss of blood from the left carotid artery and the division of the windpipe.

My understanding is that a severed carotid artery would cause a very, very quick death. The reason being that certain arteries are especially vulnerable to rapid bleed-outs, including the aorta, femoral or carotid artery; because these are the main blood vessels responsible for pulling oxygen-rich blood from the heart to the rest of the body. In the event one of these arteries is punctured, the trauma can result in an immediate blood pressure drop and extremely rapid blood loss.

Just a few thoughts to begin with.

Has anyone looked at the medical statements alone and what they may mean for TOD? Does anyone see a conflict in the medical opinions of Dr Phillips and Dr Blackwell?

[Aethelwulf]

'Thought I'd start a new thread on this.

I appreciate people have their opinions in terms of the witnesses and so on, and that is being discussed on another thread.

What about the medical evidence alone? What does it suggest?

According to Dr Blackwell, this was a comparatively slow death. That being the case, Liz wouldn't have been dying silently: she would have been spluttering and gurgling. How did say Louis Diemschutz happen upon a Liz who had just been killed but wasn't dying 'comparatively slowly'?

On the other hand, Dr Phillips' testimony adds this: the cause of death had been undoubtedly the loss of blood from the left carotid artery and the division of the windpipe.

My understanding is that a severed carotid artery would cause a very, very quick death. The reason being that certain arteries are especially vulnerable to rapid bleed-outs, including the aorta, femoral or carotid artery; because these are the main blood vessels responsible for pulling oxygen-rich blood from the heart to the rest of the body. In the event one of these arteries is punctured, the trauma can result in an immediate blood pressure drop and extremely rapid blood loss.

Just a few thoughts to begin with.

Has anyone looked at the medical statements alone and what they may mean for TOD? Does anyone see a conflict in the medical opinions of Dr Phillips and Dr Blackwell?

Could she have been strangled/partially strangled with the neck scarf? So it would have been silent. I wonder if she escaped bs man into the alley and he crept up behind, strangled her cut her throat and left, and the actual disturbance was the Schwartz incident and he didn't want to hang around further. Also because of the busyness of the club.

[Darryl Kenyon]

In his summing up Wynne Baxter says - But there had been the same skill exhibited in the way in which the victim had been entrapped, and the injuries inflicted, so as to cause instant death and prevent blood from soiling the operator.

He seems to disagree with Dr Blackwell's assertion that Liz bled to death comparatively slowly.

Regards Darryl

[c.d.]

I wonder if she escaped bs man into the alley and he crept up behind, strangled her cut her throat and left, and the actual disturbance was the Schwartz incident and he didn't want to hang around further.

But why run into the alley in an attempt to escape? Wouldn't it have made more sense to run to the safety of the club and pound on the door and yell for help?

c.d.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Could she have been strangled/partially strangled with the neck scarf? So it would have been silent.

The blood on Liz's hand suggests Liz put her hand up to her neck, which in turn suggests Liz was conscious when her throat was cut.

[Fleetwood Mac]

In his summing up Wynne Baxter says - But there had been the same skill exhibited in the way in which the victim had been entrapped, and the injuries inflicted, so as to cause instant death and prevent blood from soiling the operator.

He seems to disagree with Dr Blackwell's assertion that Liz bled to death comparatively slowly.

Regards Darryl

I reckon 'the skill' may be overplayed, given Jack tended to cut his victims' throats more than once. And, Liz wouldn't have died instantly no matter how Wynne Baxter reached that conclusion. Jack knew how to avoid blood being squirted all over him, but that doesn't equate to having the skill to murder instantly with one swoop of his blade.

I'm not convinced his position as a coroner, a lawyer by trade in actual fact, qualifies him to be an authoritative commentator.

[c.d.]

In his summing up Wynne Baxter says - But there had been the same skill exhibited in the way in which the victim had been entrapped, and the injuries inflicted, so as to cause instant death and prevent blood from soiling the operator.

He seems to disagree with Dr Blackwell's assertion that Liz bled to death comparatively slowly.

Regards Darryl

But was he speaking figuratively or literally? If figuratively, it might have been for affect to emphasize the horrible nature of the crime.

c.d.

[Aethelwulf]

The blood on Liz's hand suggests Liz put her hand up to her neck, which in turn suggests Liz was conscious when her throat was cut.

What's the ref for that I must have missed it did have a scan through the inquest. There are those weird oblong clots on the back of her hand but Dr p said they were a mystery to him, which doesn't sound like something as simple as hand on throat. Also sounds like that scarf was pulled tight still think she was at least partially strangled. You know reading the notes again the position of the body is remarkably similar to mylet who las laid out one leg straight other raised beside/close to the yard wall

[Fleetwood Mac]

What's the ref for that I must have missed it did have a scan through the inquest. There are those weird oblong clots on the back of her hand but Dr p said they were a mystery to him, which doesn't sound like something as simple as hand on throat. Also sounds like that scarf was pulled tight still think she was at least partially strangled. You know reading the notes again the position of the body is remarkably similar to mylet who las laid out one leg straight other raised beside/close to the yard wall

Dr Blackwell at the inquest:

Her right hand was open and on the chest, and was smeared with blood.

Aye, Dr Phillips stated it was a mystery.

Dr Phillips suggests Liz was conscious when put on the ground: but why did she not cry out while she was being put on the ground? - She was in a yard, and in a locality where she might cry out very loudly and no notice be taken of her.

I'd say Liz putting her hand up to her throat is a decent bet, but it's not really central to the point, that being: a Liz bleeding to death comparatively slowly, wouldn't have been dying silently.

[Fleetwood Mac]

On the TOD for Liz, Dr Phillips leaves room for an earlier time.

He arrived between 20 minutes and half an hour after Dr Blackwell, and stated that Liz had been alive within an hour.

Suggesting 12.36 approx. at the earliest.

And then of course, in the event we take Dr Phillips at face value, then he is saying 'alive'; meaning he could be leaving room for an attack before 12.30 depending upon how long it took Liz to bleed to death.

Maybe there's a case to re-examine received wisdom in terms of TOD for Liz.

[Fleetwood Mac]

On the TOD for Liz, Dr Phillips leaves room for an earlier time.

He arrived between 20 minutes and half an hour after Dr Blackwell, and stated that Liz had been alive within an hour.

Suggesting 12.36 approx. at the earliest.

And then of course, in the event we take Dr Phillips at face value, then he is saying 'alive'; meaning he could be leaving room for an attack before 12.30 depending upon how long it took Liz to bleed to death.

Maybe there's a case to re-examine received wisdom in terms of TOD for Liz.

Following on from this:

This earlier TOD would explain why PC Smith alone noticed the flower, i.e. the other women seen by witnesses weren't Liz as she was already lying in the yard.

It would also explain why Fanny Mortimer did not see or hear anything out of the ordinary. We can infer that Fanny did not see PC Smith and we know Fanny was indoors when she heard the 'measured, heavy tramp' go past her door.

Obviously you'd have to ask why the club members did not see Liz's body. Well, Louis didn't, he'd passed Liz at the point he got off his cart and it's worth remembering there was enough room at the gates to get a cart through them.

It's still not clear to me how long it would have taken Liz to bleed to death, and therefore how long she would have been gurgling and spluttering blood for someone to hear.