Would It Be The Job of the Police Or the Grand Jury to Discredit Schwartz's Testimony

[belinda]

Could the corsage have been made of fake flowers?

[lynn cates]

bodies

Hello Pat. Thanks.

Actually, I meant with respect to the post mortem determinations.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

manual strangulation

Hello Garry.

"But then we know that the Ripper subdued his known victims by way of manual strangulation"

Certainly true of Polly and Annie.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Smith

Hello Cris.

"You know, no flowers seen on the woman's lapel when PC Smith (a policeman) had seen such on the identified victim before Brown stated he saw the couple."

Indeed. That is why I have NO reservations about Smith's sighting.

Cheers.
LC

[Garry Wroe]

"But then we know that the Ripper subdued his known victims by way of manual strangulation"

Certainly true of Polly and Annie.

Eddowes and Kelly too, Lynn.

[Trevor Marriott]

Eddowes and Kelly too, Lynn.

But of course if that be the case and he had a design on their organs why go to all the trouble of carrying out the mutilations and ripping open the abdomens.

Why not simply strangle them and then remove the organs much more easily than it would to have removed organs given the state of the bodies and the abdomens in particular.

Now do I hear the words "ah but he only strangled them to render them unconscious" well that doesn't stand up either. If the killer goes to the lengths of strangling them its a continuing process to carry on and kill them by the same method

You cant have your cake and eat it.

[Garry Wroe]

But of course if that be the case and he had a design on their organs why go to all the trouble of carrying out the mutilations and ripping open the abdomens.

The killer would have needed to do at least some cutting in order to access the internal organs, Trev. What we know to be true of such killers, however, is that the mutilations have a sadosexual component, an element that motivates the crimes in the first place. As for the abstracted organs, Albert Fish remained in a state of hypersexual excitement during the nine or so days that it took him to consume the body parts of Grace Budd. Hence such crimes are defined as lust killings.

Why not simply strangle them and then remove the organs much more easily than it would to have removed organs given the state of the bodies and the abdomens in particular.

As above.

Now do I hear the words "ah but he only strangled them to render them unconscious" well that doesn't stand up either.

You do, Trev, and it does.

If the killer goes to the lengths of strangling them its a continuing process to carry on and kill them by the same method

Cutting was this man’s primary motivation, Trev. Subduing a victim by way of partial strangulation was merely the means by which he was able to inflict a series of sharp force injuries on an inanimate woman. Sutcliffe used a hammer. Others have used alcohol, sleeping pills or even gas. In each case this subduing process was simply a means to an end.

[Wickerman]

Now do I hear the words "ah but he only strangled them to render them unconscious" well that doesn't stand up either. If the killer goes to the lengths of strangling them its a continuing process to carry on and kill them by the same method

I'd like to know how the killer is supposed to determine an unconscious body, from a dead one, in the dark, in a hurry.
Do you think he is going to be bothered feeling for a pulse, or simply cut her throat, and have done with it.

[Trevor Marriott]

I'd like to know how the killer is supposed to determine an unconscious body, from a dead one, in the dark, in a hurry.
Do you think he is going to be bothered feeling for a pulse, or simply cut her throat, and have done with it.

Precisely

I was merely negating the suggestion that all the victims were strangled first but of course as usual with me you have to make a big issue out of it.

[Trevor Marriott]

The killer would have needed to do at least some cutting in order to access the internal organs, Trev. What we know to be true of such killers, however, is that the mutilations have a sadosexual component, an element that motivates the crimes in the first place. As for the abstracted organs, Albert Fish remained in a state of hypersexual excitement during the nine or so days that it took him to consume the body parts of Grace Budd. Hence such crimes are defined as lust killings.


As above.


You do, Trev, and it does.


Cutting was this man’s primary motivation, Trev. Subduing a victim by way of partial strangulation was merely the means by which he was able to inflict a series of sharp force injuries on an inanimate woman. Sutcliffe used a hammer. Others have used alcohol, sleeping pills or even gas. In each case this subduing process was simply a means to an end.

Well you stick with your theories I will stick with mine those being that he cut their throats from behind and didn't strangle them first.

I don't think this thread is the right place to discuss this, not that i want to because it has been done to death in the past and i have better things to do with my time on a saturday afternoon.

[Garry Wroe]

Well you stick with your theories I will stick with mine those being that he cut their throats from behind and didn't strangle them first.

There were clear signs of strangulation in Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly, Trev - clenched fists, swollen tongues and so forth. Bond also noted the presence of ecchymosis around Kelly's throat. Additionally, the arterial blood spray found on the fence at the Hanbury Street crime scene confirms that Chapman's throat was cut whilst she was on the ground and lying on her back. Substitute bed for ground and an identical pattern may be observed with regard to the Miller's Court murder.

[lynn cates]

all things visible and invisible

Hello Garry. Thanks.

"Eddowes and Kelly too, Lynn."

Indeed? What were they?

Of course, I have been given to understand that Liz had INVISIBLE signs of strangulation. Perhaps they, too?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

motivation

Hello (again) Garry.

"Cutting was this man’s primary motivation"

How on earth can we know that? Merely an assumption.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

lingually speaking

Hello Trevor.

"Well you stick with your theories I will stick with mine those being that he cut their throats from behind and didn't strangle them first."

The first two were. Look at the condition of their tongues.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

And it shall be a sign unto you.

Hello Garry.

"clenched fists, swollen tongues"

Clenched fists? Well, now we can bring in Liz.

Swollen tongues? Try Polly and Annie--protruding and lacerated.

The rest?

Cheers.
LC