Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[Batman]

Also how do you account for the fact that The Star reported more than one person witnessed the attack and police investigated. Who is the other person Schwartz also mystically guessed was there? Is that not his mythical pipeman suddenly materializing and becoming real for interview?

[lynn cates]

interview

Hello Cd. Thanks.

The evidence seems to indicate that they were suspicious of the story. Whether that means they thought the club involved is another matter.

I think Abberline interviewed him and may have looked for body english, etc.

Of course, they would need an interpreter.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Lizzie

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"The "Lizzie" argument never seemed to make much sense to me."

Not much to me either. Just trying to save an untenable position for our junior poster.

"It seems very likely that "Lipski" was uttered directly at Schwartz with an accompanying look and a gesture to go along with it."

OK, but why was Israel ignorant about the party for whom it was intended?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

oracular

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"How do you explain that basically Schwartz got nothing wrong?"

Simple. It was the same as the oracles, because, you see, they never really said anything.

Oh, Schwartz did say something of importance. He claimed that his BSM yelled a slur. Just didn't know at whom it was aimed. heh-heh

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

wheelwright

Hello (again) Batman. Thanks.

The police doubtless tried to find two people matching the description Schwartz provided. It was a dismal failure. This likely contributed to the suspicions the Leman lads had.

Have you checked out any of the numerous Liz threads? This is all reinventing the wheel and, frankly, I am bored.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Cd. Thanks.

The evidence seems to indicate that they were suspicious of the story. Whether that means they thought the club involved is another matter.

I think Abberline interviewed him and may have looked for body english, etc.

Of course, they would need an interpreter.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Well it is hard to believe that they couldn't have made the leap to a connection to the club. And if the police hated the club as much as you believe, they seemed to have missed a golden opportunity.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

coppers

Hello CD. Thanks.

Oh, sure--quite possible.

But the police who disliked the club were not just beat coppers. They had different concerns. One needs to move up the police food chain a good bit to arrive there.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"The "Lizzie" argument never seemed to make much sense to me."

Not much to me either. Just trying to save an untenable position for our junior poster.

"It seems very likely that "Lipski" was uttered directly at Schwartz with an accompanying look and a gesture to go along with it."

OK, but why was Israel ignorant about the party for whom it was intended?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I think all of the inconsistencies in Schwartz's story simply stem from the fact that he came in in the middle of the movie, didn't understand what was being said, and left after only a couple of minutes. That seems a much simpler and much more probable explanation to me than a conspiracy theory.

Also, as far as "Lizzie" goes, couldn't he have figured out the answer the police were looking for as far as concluding B.S. man was her killer, and gone in that direction instead of being vague. To me, his vagueness tends to confirm his veracity.

And isn't your distrust of Schwartz fueled by the fact that you don't believe in the Ripper?

c.d.

[RockySullivan]

Didn't lipski live like one block over on batty street? I think the fact that Schwartz was Jewish, their outside a Jewish club, the proximity to batty street, and pipeman going after Schwartz it makes more sense for lipski. Why would BS man shout Lizzie to pipeman it schwartz? Why would pipeman go after Schwartz if BSman shouted Lizzie? Also Lizzie doesn't sound much like lipski...it's close but lipski has a p and a k and Schwartz was likely very familiar with the word lipski if he lived right there during the lipski scandal. I think lipski was a threat as in "remember lipski!? We will frame you for this murder!"

[Batman]

Hello (again) Batman. Thanks.

The police doubtless tried to find two people matching the description Schwartz provided. It was a dismal failure.

Cheers.
LC

Did the police report that failure? I don't think so.

If you think they haven't traced the second man then explain why on 19th of October 1888, Chief Inspector Swanson wrote that 'the police apparently do not suspect the second man,’ ?

Why not say "the police do not suspect EITHER man?"

It's obvious that they do suspect the other man, BSman, but wouldn't say it openly.

Paul Begg gives reasons why they found pipeman here -> http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...018#post323018

[lynn cates]

B S M

Hello CD. Thanks.

"I think all of the inconsistencies in Schwartz's story simply stem from the fact that he came in in the middle of the movie, didn't understand what was being said, and left after only a couple of minutes."

Could be. IF this story is true, BS is obviously her killer. But his story needs a good bit of tweaking to get the forensics to work out. In particular, she needs to fall twice--both times on her left.

"Also, as far as "Lizzie" goes, couldn't he have figured out the answer the police were looking for as far as concluding B.S. man was her killer, and gone in that direction instead of being vague."

Recall that all this was through an interpreter. Frankly, I think the story was hastily concocted and never explored to its conclusion.

"And isn't your distrust of Schwartz fueled by the fact that you don't believe in the Ripper?"

Not a bit of it. As has been stated by myself and others many times, the BSM story FACILITATES my anti-ripper stand. If BS existed, then he killed Liz. And BSM is NOT "JTR."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

slur

Hello Rocky. Thanks.

Frankly, I don't believe in Lipski nor yet Lizzie. I mentioned the story to help a new poster hang on to his cherished ideas.

I think this racial slur was concocted simply to indicate to the police that Liz's killer was not Jewish and hence not a club member.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

story

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"Did the police report that failure? I don't think so."

Officially? Don't know. But it was obviously leaked to the "Star" lad--unless the paper made up the news.

"If you think they haven't traced the second man then explain why on 19th of October 1888, Chief Inspector Swanson wrote that 'the police apparently do not suspect the second man,’?

Much had happened by then. They had 3 weeks to hone their ideas.

Why not say "the police do not suspect EITHER man?"

"It's obvious that they do suspect the other man, BSman, but wouldn't say it openly."

Close. It's obvious that the upper echelon lads, or some of them, did. It was the station cops who doubted the story.

Any luck on researching those Stride threads? Many of your questions are answered there.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

If the police didn't have Schwartz identify Kidney, I have to believe it would have been for one of two reasons. Either they were incredibly incompetent or Kidney had an alibi which they checked and verified.

c.d.

Kidney does admit to walking into Leman St. voluntarily, but he was drunk and a little belligerent.
Given that he was Stride's 'significant other', and therefore an automatic suspect, the police are not likely to send him away to come back when he was sober.
Wouldn't the police place him in a cell to sleep it off?, and then obtain the necessary statement.

[harry]

Doesn't matter where the information came from,Schwartz claimed of he aring raised voices in argument as he was going away.Not likely then,that an assault on Stride had been continuous,or that she was being threatened with a knife.Less likely also that she willingly went with BS into the yard.