Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[Cogidubnus]

The card was amongst his effects.

Wess was in the tobacco business. Now, what was in that black bag of Goldstein's?

Well it's a cracking find...and a possible connection again Lynn...but I don't suppose they were the only two tobacco workers in the City...so it's still a bit tenuous for me...

Every good wish

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"Why must they spill? Have you never fallen with something in your hand and not dropped it?"

In my hand? Sure. Between my fingers? Only if someone is grasping at my throat.

Try it, but be CAREFUL.

Cheers.
LC

I am a smoker. I've not dropped my cig whilst falling often. If someone was choking me I certainly would not drop it as I would be using it to meet the person's eye. Thanks for the pic and the info. Interesting indeed.

[Cogidubnus]

Is this a good time to bring up the grapes?

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Is this a good time to bring up the grapes?

It's always a good time for grapes.

[Cogidubnus]

Peel me a grape?

No not really Dig...We'd give poor old Tom Westcott a relapse when he returns!

All the best

[lynn cates]

partner

Hello Dave. Thanks.

"by this stage he's shoved her into the yard, yanking her round"

Retaining the cachous, of course?

"she's facing more North and he's standing behind her...I think Schwarz is therefore seeing this part of the struggle from behind (looking back) and can't therefore see exactly what's going on...does that work better for you?"

Umm, not quite. You see, my problem is that they go from face to face to same direction, him behind.

If you could try this with a partner, I think you'd see what I mean.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Leon

Hello Dave. Thanks.

"I don't suppose they were the only two tobacco workers in the City...so it's still a bit tenuous for me..."

Very well. He kept the card with him. Was he a friend of the Irish fellow who was honoured? (heh-heh)

Incidentally, what did Leon say when he explained himself?

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn.

Does MichaelW.Richards know? He might have your baby because of this. And thanks again. It's nice to have confirmation that Mr. Cates doesn't ALWAYS work from a groundless basis. Just in case, that was an attempt at humour by me.

[lynn cates]

bifurcation

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Very well. But try it with cachous. Pressure to the throat--hand clenches. No spill. Else, they spill.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

groundless

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"It's nice to have confirmation that Mr. Cates doesn't ALWAYS work from a groundless basis."

Just sometimes? heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Lynn

If you could try this with a partner, I think you'd see what I mean.

You think I'd still have a partner after? Forget it - she's not sympathetic!

I think with some degree of shoving and manhandling (which the bruising observed at the PM suggests occurred) it's feasible...as you say the cachous make it slightly less so, but not if she instinctively tightens her grip on them...

We know he's escalated the thing quickly from nothing from Schwartz's account - if he keeps up the momentum the poor woman's not going to know what's happening until the last minute...which is a small mercy I suppose...

Dave

[lynn cates]

license

Hello Dave, DLDW. Just to round out the symmetry of my claim . . .

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

grip

Hello Dave. Thanks.

"You think I'd still have a partner after?"

Are you suggesting I could get rid of her that way? Nah. 'Twould take more than that. (heh-heh)

Her hand grip would tighten IF there were something at her throat; shoved to ground? No.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Ive been suggesting that something may be up with Goldsteins bag of cigarette cartons, seems like its an idea that may have merit. There were cottagers awake at the time Goldstein passed by the gates,... its also my opinion as he looked into the passageway he probably saw a member or two steering him clear of the gates. If you believe Louis arrived at 1am like he vehemently declares, then when Goldstein passes Liz is likely just been or was being murdered, and therefore the killer was still at that spot. If you suspect that Louis actually arrived earlier than 1am, my suggested scenario would be taking place. Lets remember....Leon didnt come in until Tuesday night...the murder was early Sunday morning, and he had a translator. Perhaps the same one that Schwartz used, which would be Wess I believe if so.

If a BSM man existed and something transpired like Israel said it did at approximately the time he said it occurred, then he likely saw the murderer. And he was not likely the "phantom menace" Jack... approaching his target in front of witnesses in the street while intoxicated.

If BSM accosted Liz in the passageway...now theres a scenario. Almost like Israel said it happened, only he was leaving the club via the passageway and passed the couple as they were close to the wall. Making the assailant likely someone at least affiliated with the club,... and there is your viable reason for some management types at the club to alter some stories. Like coercing Schwartz to make his statement placing the assailant from off the club property, and a gentile. Why wouldnt Israel go along...his new story has him being the considerate fellow and checking to see if his wife had moved a few suitcases over the span of some 12 hours. And denouncing Isaac K's, Gillens and Spooners recollection of the timing of their being alerted to the body. Eagle agrees to say he saw nothing, but he hedges it with "I cant be sure the body wasnt there" for his own protection, in case someone proves it later on. And despite the fact that he also says he stayed close to the wall when heading down that dark passage. And Lave and Eagle, even though they are at the same place at the same time,...12:40 at the gates, dont even see each other.

No-body saw nuthin....no people in the passageway, no cottagers looking out their windows, no Mrs D stepping to the open side door for some air during the time between 12:30 and 1am.

Must have been some outsiders that just slipped in the open gates, brought that ugly violence into our serene club environment, stopped the singing early.....those damn Christians.

Cheers

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Lynn

Very well. He kept the card with him. Was he a friend of the Irish fellow who was honoured?

It's possible - but it's dated 1891 so may have no connection other than a remembrance of a damned good do...

Incidentally, what did Leon say when he explained himself?

Only that he'd been in a coffee shop in Spectacle Alley...presumably he was on his way home to Christian Street...and Berners is a likely route to take...If you're asking me to speculate (again) perhaps he'd dropped off a consignment of full packets somewhere local and was returning home with empties...

All the best

Dave