Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Lynn

But the BSM "assault" seems all wrong. In such a confrontation surely they are face to face? But that is at loggerheads with his cutting her as she fell. that would necessitate his being at least slightly behind her.

What if the grip on the shoulder that Schwartz thought he saw was actually the killers hand pulling up her neck by the scarf, and she half turns as he yanks her down. It might also explain the blood flow from the body towards the kitchen door...arterial gush?

Having trouble concentrating at present...an over-amorous cat is attempting to sit on my keyboard!

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

"As you can see, Holmes, nothing escapes me."

Hello (yet again) Dave.

"More to the point Lynn, do we have any real evidence to doubt them? Particularly since at least the last few minutes are corroborated by Goldstein?"

I do not propose ignoring Goldstein. But surely he was quite late to have seen much?

Fanny? Did she see:

1. Liz?

2. parcel man?

3. PC Smith

4. Brown?

5. Schwartz?

6. BSM?

7. pipeman?

Now I recognise the last three are disputed, but surely she should have seen the first four?

"And do we ignore Brown as well?"

Did he see an assault?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

in progress

Hello Phil. You make many good points. I agree.

One place I'd beg to differ. IS claims he followed behind BSM. So, was it really a scene already in progress?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

quickly

Hello Dave. Thanks.

Looks like it all happened so quickly that each missed the other.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

"More to the point Lynn, do we have any real evidence to doubt them? Particularly since at least the last few minutes are corroborated by Goldstein?"

I do not propose ignoring Goldstein. But surely he was quite late to have seen much?

Fanny? Did she see:

1. Liz?

2. parcel man?

3. PC Smith

4. Brown?

5. Schwartz?

6. BSM?

7. pipeman?

Now I recognise the last three are disputed, but surely she should have seen the first four?

I think Fanny came out somewhere between 1245 and 1250, and so missed most of the action...but she didn't hear any kerfuffle and hue and cry up the road either...until after she'd gone back in and heard Diemschutz approaching.

Goldstein too heard or saw nothing to indicate an earlier discovery of the body...if there were jewish club members around debating what to do with a body, or rushing off for help he dodn't see them...that came after he'd passed...in the meantime Liz was laying in the shadows.

I've addressed Brown above - remember Lynn...not only did he not see BSM...he didn't see anything untoward (like an early discovery) kicking off in the Yard either

All the best

Dave

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

Phantasms R Us.

Hello (again) Dave. Thanks.

"What if the grip on the shoulder that Schwartz thought he saw was actually the killers hand pulling up her neck by the scarf, and she half turns as he yanks her down."

OK. But now Liz needs to be facing East as does the killer--only slightly behind. But in the confrontation, he should be facing West--face TOWARDS Liz.

if you run this through your mind, replete with imagery, you'll see what I mean.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Looks like it all happened so quickly that each missed the other

Well that's the way I see it Lynn...but I wouldn't want you to think I'm completely shutting the door on any other angles...At times my mind is so open it's almost vacant

All the best

Dave

[richardnunweek]

Hi Lynn,
No Stride would not have known he was the Ripper, but If he had not silenced her, and instead walked away, she would have a description of him, and if she reported the incident, he did not want to have the risk of being identified, and the police becoming aware of him.
For him to continue his killing spree he had to be invisible.and unknown.
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

sundry

Hello (yet again) Dave. Thanks. (Hope you've properly chastised your cat.)

"I think Fanny came out somewhere between 1245 and 1250, and so missed most of the action...but she didn't hear any kerfuffle and hue and cry up the road either...until after she'd gone back in and heard Diemschutz approaching."

Out of curiousity, when Fanny says that she heard the cart approaching, how do we know it was approaching rather than, say, being driven out?

"Goldstein too heard or saw nothing to indicate an earlier discovery of the body...if there were jewish club members around debating what to do with a body, or rushing off for help he dodn't see them...that came after he'd passed...in the meantime Liz was laying in the shadows."

Please to recall that Goldstein was apparently a friend to Wess. I think I posted his material a couple years back?

"I've addressed Brown above - remember Lynn...not only did he not see BSM...he didn't see anything untoward (like an early discovery) kicking off in the Yard either."

And so, he is a star witness?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

yes

Hello Dave. Thanks.

Yes, I know you are.

And my mind is altogether vacuuous. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

still under the radar

Hello Richard. Thanks.

"he did not want to have the risk of being identified, and the police becoming aware of him."

But surely, at worst, a PC would have been summoned, it would have been perceived as a Saturday night row, Liz would likely not have prosecuted and BSM would be released with an admonition?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

retirement

Hello All. With all the remarkable common sense being shown regarding Liz on this thread, I'm thinking about retiring and letting CD take over my work.

Of course, there's always the danger that my retirement would be interrupted by someone. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Black Cat

Hi Lynn

Hello (yet again) Dave. Thanks. (Hope you've properly chastised your cat.)

I did but he's back...perhaps he's Diddles reincarnated and taking an interest

Out of curiousity, when Fanny says that she heard the cart approaching, how do we know it was approaching rather than, say, being driven out?

I've mulled that one over myself Lynn...also the question of why she should remark on it to her husband - I can only think she could hear it getting louder (thus approaching rather than disappearing) and she remarked on it because Diemschutz was unusually late...possibly she didn't much like the club and its members, attributing to them a lot of nocturnal disturbance?

Please to recall that Goldstein was apparently a friend to Wess. I think I posted his material a couple years back?

Still doesn't mean we can necessarily discount what he says...his and Fanny's stories do seem to tie up.

And so, he is a star witness?

Don't know about a star witness Lynn, (who is?) but I'd say not an insignificant one

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

modal involvement

Hello Dave. Thanks.

"Still doesn't mean we can necessarily discount what he says."

Contingently, then? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

But surely, at worst, a PC would have been summoned, it would have been perceived as a Saturday night row, Liz would likely not have prosecuted and BSM would be released with an admonition?

Well that does rather depend on what if anything's been said between them - if it was suspicious enough, then I can't believe the police wouldn't have followed it up just on the offchance...they were fairly thorough - As Swanson comments "there are now 994 dockets besides police reports"

All the best

Dave