Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[The Good Michael]

Hello Michael.

"Why risk Schwartz' safety by having the poor man appear at a possibly hostile inquest to admit that he did nothing when a woman was assaulted?"

How could he--especially as he may have had TWO men to contend with? And the "second" one was carrying a pipe with magic powers--you light it and it converts to a knife.

I hadn't thought about those two men. Again, you mull over many odd possibilities that others don't think of. Good on yer, mate.

Mike

[lynn cates]

He was pausing, lighting his knife . . .

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Well, lit knives do. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

honest

Hello Michael. Thanks for the kind words.

My method is to TRY to reconstruct what actually happened whilst allowing a broad range of possibilities.

I would very much LIKE the Schwartz story to be true. That would certainly further my overall thesis. But I cannot be intellectually dishonest just for the sake of convenience.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Hello Michael. Thanks for the kind words.

My method is to TRY to reconstruct what actually happened whilst allowing a broad range of possibilities.

I would very much LIKE the Schwartz story to be true. That would certainly further my overall thesis. But I cannot be intellectually dishonest just for the sake of convenience.

But, no one wants to be intellectually dishonest...unless they have a book deal. I have no book deal...I don't even want to think about a book on this stuff. I will say I am excited about Monty's book on the police. We don't have to worry about any need for dishonesty there.

Mike

[Jon Guy]

Another quote says she was being pulled into the street Jon...hardly a smoking gun point.

Hi Michael


The quote actually says "tried to pull her into the street but he turned her around and threw her down on the footway"

[Harry D]

Why would the Ripper be trying to pull his victim into the street? Was he drunk or just having an off day? Doesn't add up to me.

[Jon Guy]

With this scenario, it explains;

A) Why Liz is found on that spot inside the gates.
B) The bruises.
C) Liz still holding cashous...the intimidation escalated quickly to assault
D) How Fanny missed seeing Israel...she was only at her door continuously from around 12:50 until 1am
E) What time Liz was cut....at around 12:46, which then matches 3 witnesses who swore they saw the dying woman at approx. 12:45 and the medical opinion on cut time. Issac K also claimed Louis sent him out for help at that time....which would verify that Louis arrived earlier than he said, and would then marry with the fact that Fanny did not see or hear any Louis cart or horse approach the club between 12:50 and 1am.
F) Where Liz went after PC Smith saw her...into the passageway.
G) It would explain why Israels story wasn't presented or recorded at the Inquest...he skewed the true details to protect the club from suspicion.

This all works with Schwartz` story as it is, Michael

Why start inventing stuff such as he was a club member, and was exiting the side door ?

[Batman]

JtR killed Nichols on the street.

[Jon Guy]

Why would the Ripper be trying to pull his victim into the street? Was he drunk or just having an off day? Doesn't add up to me.

Perhaps, he wanted her to come with him to a more suitable spot for mutilation, and when she refused he pushed her back a yard into the darkness and slit her throat . Does that sound more like the Ripper, Harry ?

Perhaps, he wanted to have sex with her and she refused ?

Perhaps, the Ripper only operated when he was drunk and having a bad day ?

[Harry D]

JtR killed Nichols on the street.

But Nichols was killed in a relatively secluded backstreet. No one heard or saw anything, making it possible that murderer and victim went there for 'business' before things turned ugly. BS accosted Stride outside a busy social club and was shouting across the street at witnesses. The actions of a drunken brute? Sure. The actions of a surreptitious killer? Not likely.

[lynn cates]

effortless self deception

Hello Michael. Thanks.

Of course, some achieve it without trying.

Agree about Neil's book.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Again with the bruises....I gave a while back a perfectly reasonable explanation for the bruising..her having her back against the wall and her assailant poking her in the upper chest. A I said, IF Israel modified his story to protect the club, then he still may have seen Liz Stride assaulted inside the gates while he left via the side door. At the same time he says he saw the event.In basically the same format. He comes out with the assailants back to him, Liz against the wall. The assailant shoos him off, he leaves by going around the man and exiting via the gates.

With this scenario, it explains;

A) Why Liz is found on that spot inside the gates.
B) The bruises.
C) Liz still holding cashous...the intimidation escalated quickly to assault
D) How Fanny missed seeing Israel...she was only at her door continuously from around 12:50 until 1am
E) What time Liz was cut....at around 12:46, which then matches 3 witnesses who swore they saw the dying woman at approx. 12:45 and the medical opinion on cut time. Issac K also claimed Louis sent him out for help at that time....which would verify that Louis arrived earlier than he said, and would then marry with the fact that Fanny did not see or hear any Louis cart or horse approach the club between 12:50 and 1am.
F) Where Liz went after PC Smith saw her...into the passageway.
G) It would explain why Israels story wasn't presented or recorded at the Inquest...he skewed the true details to protect the club from suspicion.

IF the above scenario is accurate, then I would guess that its probable Liz Stride was mistaken for a spy on the club by a security person hired for that nights meeting, and when she went to get away from him he grabbed her scarf, pulled her back off balance, and twisted the scarf, causing her body to twist slightly, and he slid a knife under her throat as she fell. Again, matching the medical opinion that "she may have been cut while falling".

We know unfortunates were hired to spy on certain parties, we know Liz had a police connection previously in her love life, we know that she is not dressed up with mints and a flower for no reason, and that her soliciting outside a club that had 70% of its occupants leave an hour earlier is likely nonsense. We know she had been, for some time, working among the Jews. We know that she cleaned for her living. We know a large meeting leaves a great big mess for people to clean up.

Liz Stride was there either to clean up after the meeting or to meet someone for a romantic reason...she did indicate when leaving her belongings with someone that she did not know when she would return, she might have planned to clean all night...or have an all night date. Someone mistook her reason for being there, and when she did not co-operate by giving her reason, someone lost their cool and acted aggressive impulsively.

One cut, and no touching of her body after that.

That club was thought by police to house Anarchists..not just Socialists...and anarchists do many illegal activities. Its very reasonable to assume that they were indeed being watched.

Time to stop pretending a single cut constitutes a "ripping", and that a simple one-slice murder of a woman out at night was anything more than that.

Cheers

Hi Michael
If the club had anything to do with Strides murder and wanted to cover it up-I think the first instinct would be to just go dump her body somewhere else. not leave it their and try to create some elaborate ruse.

[Abby Normal]

Schwartz – who actually told The Star that he saw the man ‘put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage’.

Paul Begg writes -was noted that there was a bluish discoloration over both shoulders, especially the right, and under the collarbone and in front of the chest. These marks were produced by pressure from two hands, but may not have been recent or connected with the crime. Dr Phillips believed that Stride had been seized by the shoulders and forced onto the ground, where her murderer, who was on her right side (i.e. facing the wall), had cut her throat from left to right.

It seems the coroner wasn't aware of what Schwartz had claimed to have seen which only makes sense.

Sorry I don't have enough coincidence cards in my deck left for that one.

Bingo
Scwartz's statement of BS mans assault of Stride matches up with Drs assessment with the bruising.

add that coincidence to the fact that both BS man and Lawendes suspect sailorman were both wearing peaked caps.

another coincidence? I think not.

[Abby Normal]

Perhaps, he wanted her to come with him to a more suitable spot for mutilation, and when she refused he pushed her back a yard into the darkness and slit her throat . Does that sound more like the Ripper, Harry ?

Perhaps, he wanted to have sex with her and she refused ?

Perhaps, the Ripper only operated when he was drunk and having a bad day ?

Hi John
Exactly.

[The Good Michael]

Of course, some achieve it without trying.

Agree about Neil's book.

Achieving intellectual dishonesty without trying to, would be akin to convincing oneself, without absolute proof, that what they are saying is true. Now who would...never mind. I get it.

Mike