Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[lynn cates]

Brown

Hello CD. Thanks.

"Are we supposed to believe that Swanson missed all of your points when he gave his opinion that there was the possibility of another man being her killer?'

We are supposed to believe whatever we like. I am not the commissar of doxastic states. (heh-heh)

And, of course there is a possibility of another man. But absolutely no evidence.

My problem is this. We know that, two hours before, Mrs. Brown was killed similarly in Westminster. AND we know who killed her. Now, suppose some cornball ripper student proposes a "treble event"--Mrs. Brown killed by the ripper. After he is shown that it was her husband, makes the following plea:

"Yes, I know her husband cut her throat. But isn't it just possible that the wound was not deadly and, as she lay there near death, "Jack" happened by and finished her off?"

Certainly, we cannot rule out that possibility, but why on earth would a sane, rational person believe that? On what evidence?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Lynn

But her dress was not even rumpled. No signs of a struggle.

Would there need to be? Being bundled 5 or 6 feet back, then forced to the ground doesn't necessarily crease the sort of coarse material one would expect her dress to be made of (I can't find a reference to say what it was but I'm sure it wasn't silk or damask!);

Well, I would make that suggestion, too. If BS was real, then he may bloody well be responsible. But there simply MUST be a two stage attack with the cachous coming out between the two. But I can live with that.

She couldn't have instinctively clung onto them in the literally few seconds involved in being bundled backwards and dropped? Sure?

Oh, well, been jumped on before.

If I say what I have in mind to, will you reply "cute" ?

All the best

Dave

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

It seems to me that you are giving Swanson's opinion zero weight. Now this is coming from a veteran detective who was there at the time, who most likely discussed it with Abberline and who may have taken into account things of which we are not aware. I am not prepared to take his opinion so lightly.

You talk about a lack of evidence for Jack but what evidence is there for a non-Jack killer? Was it a domestic? Maybe, but no argument was heard and the police couldn't find anybody in Liz's life who might have had a motive. That pretty much leaves us with the idea that somebody had some spur of the moment dispute with her and rather than cuss her out and/or slap her around a little just immediately reached for his trusty knife. That makes the Old West seem tame by comparison.

A sane, rational person might look at Kate being killed a short time later and not too far away and conclude that Jack was out that night and if you eliminate a domestic and a spur of the moment killing (which has no evidence for it either), to me, that leaves us with Jack.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

thrown down

Hello Dave. Thanks.

If she were thrown to the ground, a la Schwartz, her dress should have been rumpled.

Same with the cachous. Being thrown, they would spill.

Yes, I AM aware of what you're thinking; and, yes, it is cute. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Swanson

Hello CD. Thanks.

What part of Swanson's opinion? Surely not when he says, "If he is to be believed . . ."?

He says she could have met another man. Indeed. But she could have met an extra-terrestrial. But why believe that?

Swanson is saying only that:

1. BSM is more likely than parcel man, due to the time.

2. BSM is still not necessarily the killer because there was a few minutes between Schwartz's time and Dimshits's arrival.

But why do you make it sound like he is claiming there was another man? He gives it as possible in the same way that I think BSM is possible. (Heck, I think "JTR" is possible--however ludicrous and unlikely.)

". . . if you eliminate a domestic and a spur of the moment killing . . ."

Why eliminate them?

Cheers.
LC

[Stewart P Evans]

'Satteen'

...
Would there need to be? Being bundled 5 or 6 feet back, then forced to the ground doesn't necessarily crease the sort of coarse material one would expect her dress to be made of (I can't find a reference to say what it was but I'm sure it wasn't silk or damask!);
...
Dave

'...her hair is very dark, with a tendency to curl and her complexion is also dark. Her features are sharp and somewhat pinched, as though she had endured considerable privations recently - an impression confirmed by the entire absence of the kind of ornaments commonly affected by women of her station. She wore a rusty black dress of a cheap kind of sateen [sic], with a velveteen bodice, over which was a black diagonal worsted jacket, with fur trimming; her bonnet, which had fallen from her head when she was found in the yard, was of black crape, and inside, apparently with the object of making the article fit closer to the head, was folded a copy of the Star newspaper. In her right hand were tightly clasped some grapes [sic], and in her left she held a number of sweetmeats. Both the jacket and the bodice were open towards the top, but in other respects the clothes were not disarranged. The linen was clean, and in tolerably good repair, but some articles were missing...'

[pinkmoon]

I wonder what are the actual odds of a women been attacked by two different people in such a small space of time I bet they are very very high indeed

[harry]

Odds

Pinkmoon,
For a woman of her class and reputation,and in those conditions,the odds of her being assaulted twice in such a short time,might be slightly more than such a woman being accosted,or accosting two different potential customers in such a short time.

[pinkmoon]

Thanks Harry but it would still be extremely high

[Lechmere]

We have no reason to think the police viewed Schwartz as a suspect and even if they did he could have been called when the inquest reconvened.
Barnett was clearly viewed with suspicion, was interrogated for four hours and had his clothes checked for blood. Yet he testified at Kelly’s inquest
We know that the butchers in Winthrop Street were viewed as suspects but Tomkins testified at the second day of the Nichols inquest.

For all the speculation there is no reason whatsoever to suggest Schwartz lived in the Club nor in any of the properties in Duffield’s Yard.
Schwartz supposedly told the Star that he and his wife were in the process of moving from Berner Street to Ellen Street and he says he was going to see if his wife was still at Berner Street.
He did not say or imply (incidentally) that his wife may have had trouble moving their possessions – which may have been considerable of miniscule. That aspect is irrelevant.
If his lodgings were in the Club or adjacent then why didn’t he say so? It would give his evidence more immediacy. The fact is he didn’t say so. He actually describes walking past the club and crossing the road. When the incident between Stride and the BS man occurred Schwartz had to turn back around to see what was going on. Accordingly it makes no sense trying to make a case that Schwartz had been living in the Club or Duffield’s Yard.

Plenty of Club members did give evidence. So if Schwartz was connected to the Club why pretend he wasn’t? The body was found in the yard so if he really witnessed the attack in the yard and not the street, why not just say so? It would have no prejudicial implication on the Club any more than the attack on Nichols implicated Brown and his Stable Yard.

If Stride was killed by the BS man and the attack started in the street then it makes it all the more strange that she did not cause more of a commotion and managed to keep hold of those cachous for all that time.
That and the time factor between the BS man incident and her discovery are the obvious reason why Swanson (and the Home Office mandarin who annotated his report) were very alive to the possibility that Stride wasn’t murdered by the BS man – and they obviously didn’t think that the odds of Stride being involved in two incidents were astronomically high.

[lynn cates]

accoutrements

Hello Stewart. Thanks for posting that.

"an impression confirmed by the entire absence of the kind of ornaments commonly affected by women of her station."

Say, this remark is interesting. Flower, but no costume jewelry.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

the math

Hello Jason.

"I wonder what are the actual odds of a women been attacked by two different people in such a small space of time."

Are statistical frequencies/probability important?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Berner

Hello Harry. According to the witnesses, Berner was not all that well travelled, was it?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

the main point

Hello Edward.

"If Stride was killed by the BS man and the attack started in the street then it makes it all the more strange that she did not cause more of a commotion and managed to keep hold of those cachous for all that time."

Precisely. And there is no getting around this by sleight of hand.

"That and the time factor between the BS man incident and her discovery are the obvious reason why Swanson (and the Home Office mandarin who annotated his report) were very alive to the possibility that Stride wasn’t murdered by the BS man. . ."

And, I might add, the SOLE reason.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Edward

If Stride was killed by the BS man and the attack started in the street then it makes it all the more strange that she did not cause more of a commotion and managed to keep hold of those cachous for all that time.

"All that time" ... How long do you think it took? She had been approached, pushed around and thrown to the ground in the very short time that it took Schwartz to pass the couple.