Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[Cogidubnus]

giving it a go

Unfortunately Lynn, as I understand it from Wickerman Jon's diagram, the area nearest the wall was paved, and the area nearer the centre was rocks and mud...

Dunno though

Dave

[lynn cates]

muddy

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Quite right. Of course, the stones get very muddy. That happens even here in Texas where rain is a rare commodity. You should see the rivulets over my walkway.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Lynn

Just so I understand . . .

1. You are suggesting an attack.

2. An exiting the scene north as far as Commercial.

3. A subsequent return.

4. An, "Oh, and another thing, Miss .

No, wherever did you get that from?

I think Schwartz followed BS up the road, saw him start off against Liz, and started crossing the road diagonally to avoid trouble, as he passed by it got noisy (perhaps the screams?) so he turned and looked diagonally backwards the way he'd come, didn't like what he saw and fled...

Now which way he went is something I've never been sure of as I'm uncertain where the railway arch is, (local knowledge not good enough)...but I'd not see him fleeing back into danger...so either straight on the way he's going, or dodging into Fairclough Street (possibly right towards Backchurch?)...anyone out there have better knowledge of the area please?

All the best

Dave

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

The answer is simple. Since this can be reproduced, all that is needed is:
1. a muddy yard
2. a fall on the right
3. mud on the left
Game?

Stride had mud on her face, in her hair, and on her right and left side. She was pretty well plastered all over with mud.
I`m not sure what you think can be reproduced from the scant details that are available, sorry.

[lynn cates]

whew!

Hello Dave. Thanks.

"No, wherever did you get that from?"

Ah! Good to hear.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

left

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Stride had mud on her face, in her hair, and on her right and left side."

With virtually all on her left side.

"She was pretty well plastered all over with mud."

Oh, please.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

"Two candidates for this 'someone else', must be Pipeman and Parcel man."

Plus others?

Cheers.
LC

Pick a number Lynn. I only include those two because we know they were in the vicinity. It is equally possible the killer was someone else.

[lynn cates]

street

Hello Jon. Thanks.

I suppose my problem is trying to dovetail this with descriptions of an empty (or nearly so) street.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Now which way he went is something I've never been sure of as I'm uncertain where the railway arch is, (local knowledge not good enough)...but I'd not see him fleeing back into danger...so either straight on the way he's going, or dodging into Fairclough Street (possibly right towards Backchurch?)...anyone out there have better knowledge of the area please?

All the best

Dave

Hi Dave.

The location of the nearest railway arches has always been a problem in deciding which direction he fled. The reference as we know comes from Swanson, I wonder if this is another error in translation as the nearest railway arches are well passed Ellen St. & Backchurch Lane.

The blue circle is the address for Schwartz given by the Star. All the red areas identify where railway lines cross over roads.



If the address given by the Star was his current address (where he was moving from) then his new address may have been south beyond the railway arches?
I suspect that is the most likely solution.

[Cogidubnus]

Whither...

Thank you for that John...it's the first time I've ever seen it explained in any detail or so clearly

All the best

Dave

[Bridewell]

Hi.
In response to Lynn, and CD,
To Clarify..what I was suggesting is.. if BS was not the Ripper, even if he had roughed her up, and knew he could be identified, he would have had no need to kill her, physical assault on unfortunates was common.
But if he was the Ripper, knowing he could be identified by the remaining person [ Stride..the other two had fled] he would have silenced her to prevent him possibly being apprehended and identified..his neck was at stake.
I am sorry if my initially post was somewhat confusing.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard,

How could Stride identify her assailant as 'the Ripper'? Are you saying that she knew him to be such? (Apologies if I have mistaken your meaning).

[richardnunweek]

Hello Bridewell,
What my meaning was.. If the killer of Stride was JTR, then he took the drastic action of killing her, because she saw him, and because of this he did not just want to say ''I have only pushed her around to date, so I will just walk off and leave her alone'' he did not wish to take the chance that she may report the incident, which could possibly have him questioned by the police,as he did not want to draw attention to himself.
Its very unlikely that a person like BS ,If he was not the Ripper would silence her for good, for simply pushing her about, it would be a drastic action to say the least.
Hope that explains my ramblings..
Regards Richard.

[Bridewell]

You describe it as a violent assault. But how do you know that? It could have been unintentional for all we know.

From Swanson's report:

The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway

I don't see how that could be described as "unintentional".

[Bridewell]

PC426H would not have been free to leave his fixed point.

Hi Dave,

A police constable on fixed point duty would have been free to leave his fixed point in response to an emergency. The expectation was that a beat officer who found a fixed point unoccupied would remain there, in his stead, until the fixed point officer returned. The fixed point officers were, I think, only in place until 1am anyway. (I can't be more specific because I'm not at home and am quoting from memory, but the source is "Dickens' Dictionary of London 1888" if anyone has a copy to hand).

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Colin

Nice to hear from you.

The point both Jon, and subsequently I made, was that the Fixed Point PC 426H had finished duty and was proceeding down Commercial Road either with, or just behind PC 252H Henry Lamb, suggesting that it'd gone 1.00 am when the club members found them...indicative that it was, therefore, more likely some while after 1.00am rather than before, which was being suggested.

Not so sure that the Fixed Point PCs were that much at liberty to leave their points though, vide the reference to Inspector Helston's statement after the Chapman murder...unless either Helston was economical of the truth to back up his man, or perhaps orders had changed in between...do you have anything concrete one way or the other perhaps? Afraid I don't have the Dickens...

Again I don't suppose it's of great import, in the grand scheme of things, but another interesting little diversion!

All the best

Dave