The International Working Men's Club as a Place of Refuge?

[lynn cates]

side door

Hello DLDW. Thanks for that.

Yes, my scenario involves the side door.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

My apologies for another Stride thread. We probably need this about as much as the world needs more lawyers. We argue about whether Liz was soliciting or waiting for somebody but I now wonder if she considered the club a safe place from the unwanted attention of the BS man. If she had had some run in with him prior to being seen by Schwartz she might have sought out the club and stood nearby as if to say "if you don't leave me alone, I am going to pound on the door and scream for help and a dozen able bodied men will come to my rescue."

I seem to recall that the door to the club was locked. Can somebody confirm that? Even so, you would think that somebody inside would be listening for late arriving members. Would a pounding on the door simply be ignored?

There is testimony from those inside the club that they believe they would have heard a scream despite the singing. Yet, no one reports hearing anything.

So it would seem that Liz had a resource that she did not take advantage of or was it the case that getting help from club members was simply not practical for one reason or another?

c.d.

Hi cd,

Our favorite subject,.. once again!!

It seems that the front door was locked sometime between the time Wess left and when Eagle returned cd, we have Eagles statement that he found it locked at 12:40am anyway, and we have the side door that empties into the passageway, by Mrs Diemshitz own account, it was ajar at that time on that night. fanny Mortimer even commented on how close the dead woman was to that door and Mrs Diemshitz working in the kitchen,...Fanny expressed her surprise that nothing was heard from the passageway. we also have cottagers that were awake at the time, and as you pointed out, the singing members upstairs, heard through the open upper window.

I believe the fact that no-one reported hearing a sound from the passageway speaks to the issue of how the "attack" was made... and how long the "attack" on Liz Stride may have taken, and therefore how much time would she have had to make a sound. By Blackwell's estimation she could have been grabbed from behind by her scarf, and the killer then twisted it to cut off her air, turned slightly to face the wall, and slid the knife across her throat as she fell when he lets the scarf go. By her position in death, the scarf evidence, and the fact that no sounds were audible, I find this a very satisfactory explanation myself.

As a reminder the evidence in the preceding alleged Ripper murders shows us that the killer subdued those women and cuts their throats with 2 deep strokes when they were on the ground, likely face up, at which point he splayed their legs and began to expose their abdomens for his knife work. Liz Stride is found in nearly fetal position, her knees drawn into her body, and she was on her side. Her boots were visible beneath her long hemline. She had a single wound, deeper on one side than the other.

They dont seem to match methodologies, do they?

Cheers cd

[The Good Michael]

As a reminder the evidence in the preceding alleged Ripper murders shows us that the killer subdued those women and cuts their throats with 2 deep strokes when they were on the ground, likely face up, at which point he splayed their legs and began to expose their abdomens for his knife work. Liz Stride is found in nearly fetal position, her knees drawn into her body, and she was on her side. Her boots were visible beneath her long hemline. She had a single wound, deeper on one side than the other.

This is opinion of course. the only aspects that aren't opinion is that all 3 had their throats cut, were prostitutes, and were piss-poor.

Mike

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

I started the thread to get a better understanding of whether Liz could have gotten help from those inside the club not as a general Stride thread per se so I won't take the bait. However, I will say that I just finished reading about an attempted abduction of a young girl here in Washington, D.C.. A man tried to lure her into his van but drove off when he saw her Mother coming towards him. Did he suddenly lose his desire to abduct the girl or did he fear getting recognized and caught? Draw your own conclusions.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

I started the thread to get a better understanding of whether Liz could have gotten help from those inside the club not as a general Stride thread per se so I won't take the bait. However, I will say that I just finished reading about an attempted abduction of a young girl here in Washington, D.C.. A man tried to lure her into his van but drove off when he saw her Mother coming towards him. Did he suddenly lose his desire to abduct the girl or did he fear getting recognized and caught? Draw your own conclusions.

c.d.

Does a serial mutilator kill in an exposed place that offers little to no privacy to perform his mutilations? Particularly when such a place was available a few steps back into the yard...Draw your own conclusions indeed cd.

And Good Michael, should you ever locate any evidence that states without question that Liz Stride was either a prostitute, or was prostituting that night, I would be delighted to see it. In its absence Im sure you'll agree your "conclusions" are as much of a guess as anyone elses.

I would agree with you that soliciting was the key to the victim selection process for the killer, its shown to be the case in the first 2 Canonical murders. Trouble is....we dont have Liz, Kate, or Mary speaking to anyone telling them that they needed to get out and earn money for their bed on the night they are killed....and in 2 of those cases it wouldnt have necessarily been any issue anyway.....Liz had earned enough for doss that day cleaning and she was sober when she dies, and Mary obviously was being allowed to run arrears...likely residue from the months of September and October, when landlords were allowing some tenants to stay without payment....for fear they would be cast out into a killers night.

So...really the only one of the three remaining who would have had dire need for doss money was Kate, and someone she drank enough to get publicly plastered earlier that night without any known money.....so perhaps her trip was to see someone who sponsored her hangover.

Cheers

Best regards gents

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

I started the thread to get a better understanding of whether Liz could have gotten help from those inside the club not as a general Stride thread per se so I won't take the bait. However, I will say that I just finished reading about an attempted abduction of a young girl here in Washington, D.C.. A man tried to lure her into his van but drove off when he saw her Mother coming towards him. Did he suddenly lose his desire to abduct the girl or did he fear getting recognized and caught? Draw your own conclusions.

c.d.

I dont see why she couldnt have called out for help cd, or run to the side door....unless, as I mentioned, Blackwells guesstimate about how this happened was accurate. Now.....would they be inclined to help her? What if she was in the company of a club attendee or member....would someone else intervene if they were quarreling in the passageway? To the latter I think not.

One key thing here is her probable body position when her killer grabbed her scarf from behind.....she was almost certainly facing out the gates at the time, perhaps trying to leave that location...and therefore her killer was in the passageway behind her, he is the closest to the side door... and with his back turned from it. This man kills without considering his privacy for any further activities...and leaves the body as it fell.

Heres one for you.....since this is between 12:46-12:56, and Fannie has been at her door since 12:50...and Goldstein walks past the gates at around 12:55-56.....where does the killer go after cutting Liz? Hmmmm......

Cheers

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

You keep stating that Liz had no need for money but that would only be true if she intended to die that night. By your way of thinking, as soon as somebody gets their first paycheck they will then quit their job because they now have money. It just doesn't work that way. There is always tomorrow which brings the need for more money. Sad but true.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

You keep stating that Liz had no need for money but that would only be true if she intended to die that night. By your way of thinking, as soon as somebody gets their first paycheck they will then quit their job because they now have money. It just doesn't work that way. There is always tomorrow which brings the need for more money. Sad but true.

c.d.

Hi cd,

I think that the mentality of the very poor may not be understood here.....they earn, and they spend it right away because its not enough to provide any security, just a bite or a pint. They cant plan or think or the future...when their needs today have not been met. Ive seen people on welfare get their cheque and take it immediately to be cashed...not for the back rent, or for future rent, for all the little things they have done without....like food, water, booze, or some kind of drug...like booze. Maybe even some mints and a flower.

We cant forget why they are very poor in the first place....ill and unable to work, dealing with some addiction of some kind, lack of education, being a single woman in a male world..... 3 of those states are likely correctable with some outside assistance. These women had no such assistance....no free womens shelters, no addiction clinics, no socialized health care. So they are trapped unless they marry out of it, or they get someone to help them.

Many were like Polly....a trick to drink with, then another to keep drinking....when that need was satisfied then she would worry about a bed.....seems like Polly wanted one drink too many that night.

[The Good Michael]

And Good Michael, should you ever locate any evidence that states without question that Liz Stride was either a prostitute, or was prostituting that night, I would be delighted to see it. In its absence Im sure you'll agree your "conclusions" are as much of a guess as anyone elses.

Don't several newspapers that call her an "unfortunate" count? That and her history of prostitution in Sweden and common sense tell me she was a prostitute. There isn't one article in the papers that says she isn't a prostitute. You lose.

Mike

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

You are right that a number of poor people have a live for today mentality which essentially keeps them poor. But I don't think that we know enough about Liz to conclude that she had that way of thinking or that she had it 100% of the time. So there is no way we can be certain that she would turn down an offer of money for her services.

c.d.

[Bridewell]

Hi Colin

I've considered him in that light, but let's be honest, depending upon timing, he's either a priceless witness or a total bullshite irrelevance...the chances of something in between, are, let's be honest, nil...so which?

Despite a distinct lack of FIRM evidence I'm currently veering towards the first Colin...how about you?

All the best

Dave

I, too, veer towards the former, but the fact that he appears not to have testified at the Stride inquest might count against that.

[Bridewell]

On the subject of the IWMEC, it seems sensible to conclude that Stride was in a location which she considered to be safe. We know that she cleaned for one or more Jewish families and, according to Kidney, spoke fluent Yiddish. If under attack and in fear of death, anyone would seek refuge wherever it might be found. Stride, as a Yiddish speaker, might be expected to feel rather more comfortable than most. As she apparently did not seek such refuge, I can only conclude that she never had the opportunity to do so.

[lynn cates]

basis

Hello Michael.

"Don't several newspapers that call her an "unfortunate" count?"

Yes, if they had a basis for that judgment.

"That and her history of prostitution in Sweden and common sense tell me she was a prostitute."

I seriously hope that I am never charged with a crime whilst you are a juror.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

I was going to remark about Good Michaels comments about Liz and Sweden, but Lynn beat me to it. I dont see how her being registered as a prostitute in Sweden in the mid-late 1860's has any bearing on what she was doing for a living in late 1888 in London,.. and we already know she had work "among the Jews" in recent times before her death. I do however believe that her being struck from that same prostitutes register, something that required an application signed by the employer who hired her, is relevant to what we might discover about her character.

Cheers

[Cogidubnus]

Well said Michael...I'm bloody sure she wasn't any sort of angel - November 1884 is a clincher in that particular respect - but out of all the canonical five she might well be the one who truly offended rarely...mind you she was, by all accounts, a rare bullshitter!

All the best

Dave