Where is Liz Stride?

[lynn cates]

Cross

Hello Caroline. Thanks.

"which seems to make some a bit cross."

Tsk! Lechmere! (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

"Wherfore didst thou doubt?"

Hello Phil.

"We will never know."

O ye of little faith.

"It appears that Stride took particular care over her appearance that night. (Clothes brush etc). Her "beau" appears to have bought her a flower."

Possibly, but not necessarily, the case.

"Maybe he (a Jew ? - she seems to have worked for Jewish familes as a cleaner) needed to call at the IWM Club and she waited outside."

Very well. But it seems, then, he was sympathetic to the club? Surely not an Orthodox Jew?

But if sympathetic to the club, why not attend the Feigenbaum lecture?

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

"We will never know." - O ye of little faith.

I cannot see that we will ever unearth evidence to give us insight into Liz's motives or intentions.

"It appears that Stride took particular care over her appearance that night. (Clothes brush etc). Her "beau" appears to have bought her a flower."

Possibly, but not necessarily, the case.

Precisely why I used the word "appears" re both statements.

Very well. But it seems, then, he was sympathetic to the club? Surely not an Orthodox Jew?

You seek to go further than our information will allow (on the basis of my speculation). Perhaps he knew someone who was a member of the Club and called to see them? On the other hand he may never have gone near the Club at all (or been Jewish). Again, I am playing with ideas. But I see the possibility of Liz waiting for someone as (given the care of her preparations) more likely than that she was soliciting that night.

Another possibility is that she was engaged in some sort of scam. We have no idea how many other people she conned into thinking she was their sister or whatever.

But I continue to prefer the view that she was murderered by her ex-lover over her being a Ripper-victim (though I am far from closed to that idea) on the basis of location, relative to Whitechapel High St as well as the exposure to passing people; the lack of mutilation; and the interpretation of her intentions that night. If Scwartz was accurate in his account of what he saw (and of that I have some doubts) the sequence of events might well fit an encounter with Kidney. I also believe that the word heard was "Lizzie!" not "Lipski!".

But you are equally free to hold your own view and to disagree with my analysis.

Phil

[lynn cates]

preponderance of the evidence

Hello Phil. Thanks.

"But I see the possibility of Liz waiting for someone as (given the care of her preparations) more likely than that she was soliciting that night."

Don't disagree. Slight preponderance of the evidence in this direction.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again,

Im not sure that the flower signifies a social engagement rather than perhaps a working one Lynn, but when coupled with breath fresheners it does make some sense. Ive never rejected the idea that she was there for an arranged date, as you know, but I have begun to feel that circumstantially there might be a better argument for work.

Be it cleaning the club that night, or meeting someone for whom she intended to work for the Jewish holiday coming up.

All the best Lynn

[Michael W Richards]

To Caz,

I think that you are underestimating the risks here, and that's why you cannot make sense of an argument that relies on that premise.

Heres another point...IF Fanny Mortimer was true to her word and spent the time from approx. 12:50 until 1am at her door continuously, and IF Louis Diemshitz told the truth about his arrival time, and if Goldstein hurried "past" the gates rather than out of them....then when is the killer?

He's inside the yard or the passageway...or one of the cottages. Or he is in the club. When does he leave...and if he doesn't leave, then doesn't that insinuate that he is among the members or hangers on after the meeting...someone known by the club?

Cheers Caz

[DVV]

"It appears that Stride took particular care over her appearance that night. (Clothes brush etc).
Phil

Prostitutes are human beings. They take shower and even brush their teeth.
(Their clients don't necessirily take that pain, alas.)
Before soliciting, women try their best to look pretty and attractive.
Well, as much as possible.
Remember how Nichols was proud of her "jolly bonnet".

[lynn cates]

spiffy

Hello Mike. Thanks.

I guess I have a problem with a spiffy char woman.

Which Jewish holiday was coming up?

Cheers.
LC

[Paddy]

Question

Does anybody know if there was an outside toilet in Dutfields yard and did the members of the club use it?
I was just thinking if people were drinking that night wouldnt there have been a lot more traffic in the yard?
Pat........

[The Good Michael]

Does anybody know if there was an outside toilet in Dutfields yard and did the members of the club use it?
I was just thinking if people were drinking that night wouldnt there have been a lot more traffic in the yard?
Pat........

yes there was. There were actually two privies. I believe one of them was locked...there was also a rubbish depression of some sort in the ground. It seems that all the murders had toilets very near the scenes.

Mike

[DVV]

It seems that all the murders had toilets very near the scenes.
Mike

Then it must be Cadosh.

Thanks Mike

[C. F. Leon]

I'm having difficulty getting the layout of Berner St straight, and the photos available aren't helping. Could someone please either post or direct to a map (I believe there's one in Sugden, but my books are all packed up in storage currently) showing how locations are in relation to each other? Like where was Ms Mortimer's door in relation to Dutfield's yard or the pub that Pipeman came from or where was PC Smith? Where was Packer's shop or the assault that Schwartz saw? What about the "railway arch"? (one of the podcasts said there were TWO) Do we know where Schwartz was coming from (someone suggested that he was attending the meeting- is this likely?) and his path through the area?

On a sideline to this, conecerning the Dutfield's Yard photo found by Phil. I fully understand his wish to keep his rights to the photo, but is it really necessary to keep it underwraps at this distance? I've never even seen a thumbnail of the picture, and it's hard to follow people talking about it when it's not available.

[drstrange169]

Hello C.F.

If you click on "Berner Street" in the photo archive section, we'll find a good map. Phil's photo is available, in all it's two page spread glory, in his book.

[C. F. Leon]

Hello C.F.

If you click on "Berner Street" in the photo archive section, we'll find a good map. Phil's photo is available, in all it's two page spread glory, in his book.

Thanks for the reply, drstrange.

I did see the map in the Photo section (ironic, since mention is made in one of the podcasts as to the drawing labeled "photo of knife" in one of the letters), but without any sort of reference points it's kind of useless to find locations. I assume that the "Stables" near the top of the map (to the right of the "E" in "Berner St") is Dutfield's Yard, but how did the International Working etc lie in relation? Was it north or south? Where was Packer's shop? Where was Pipeman's pub? Ms Mortimer's doorway? How did PC Smith's beat go? Which way did Schwartz run? Where was the railway arch (again, one of the podcasts mention there were TWO)? Do we know which direction Louis 'Dimshitz' came from? It's a great map for the general area (I assume it's from a Gould's Map) but a more localized detailed map for the area concerned is really needed (and actually for ALL of the murder locations- I know there is one for Mitre square).

As for the photo, I know it's in Phil's book but even if I had a copy, all of my books are in storage and I can't use them for reference. Of course it's right as the discoverer/owner to use, but my point is that I've never seen it in ANY form, and it's quite confusing listening to people talk about it and not having a copy to know what they are talking about. Even a thumbnail would be helpful.

[drstrange169]

[ATTACH]15318[/ATTACH]

Red - Nelson beer house
Grey - Packer
Yellow - the yard
Blue- Club
Orange - Mortimer

As to Pipe/Knifeman that is a hotly contested issue, best to read the reports and decide for yourself.