Where is Liz Stride?

[Cogidubnus]

That's the one Lynn - thought it was Forvo but not so...shows how memory can be at error - thanks!

All the best

Dave

PS Colin and Debs behind it - like so many good things on here - might've known it!

[lynn cates]

research

Hello Colin, Dave. Thanks.

Pleasure's all mine. It was a fine piece of research they did.

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Hello Caroline.

"You need to address this to DRoy and Lynn, who both suggested that Stride had booked and paid for a bed that night before hitting the streets."

Where did I suggest this? Quite the contrary. She did NOT pay her doss, though able. A fact pointed out at inquest.

Perhaps a glimpse into her thinking that night?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

In which case I apologise for misunderstanding you. When I suggested Stride might have rejected BS man earlier and gone to the club for safety, I thought you asked why she could not simply have hot-footed it back to her doss instead or even gone back to Kidney.

Clearly she could not have done the former if she had neglected to pay for a bed in advance and had spent all her money. And maybe she thought, as another unfortunate must have been thinking around the same time, that she would get a damn fine hiding if she turned up on her fella's doorstep penniless at that time of night.

As for a glimpse into her thinking, Nichols was apparently able to pay for her doss three times over on the night she met her killer, but it didn't stop her spending it each time and having to look for a fourth supply - which is presumably why she met her killer.

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

As for a glimpse into her thinking, Nichols was apparently able to pay for her doss three times over on the night she met her killer, but it didn't stop her spending it each time and having to look for a fourth supply - which is presumably why she met her killer.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

Its a good assumption, but it also may be revealing in terms of some Victim profiling done by the killer. Polly wobbled when she walked away,...(on a side note I recall that she had some kind of metal attacked to either her soles or heels, I assume to prolong the life of the shoe... do you recall something about that?)....and Annie was ill, and still a little worse for the wear from her mini brawl earlier that week. And Donovan seems to feel she was drunk when he last sees her.

These 2 women were deemed suitable prey by their killer, almost certainly the same man. They were also killed within 10 days of each other, and no other unsolved murders in the area occurred either 3 weeks prior or for 3 weeks afterward.

It seems to me that we have evidence of a spree killer, not a serial one. Supported by the next murder attributed to Jack, very unlike these first 2 kills.

Cheers

[caz]

She is found without alcohol in her system...

I don't think she was, Mike, not when she was found, ie shortly after 1am. By the time they checked for alcohol, would any have shown up, whether she had been drinking or not?

Since she seems to spend some time lingering around the club after 12:3o my suspicions are that she was waiting for someone to come outside, or possibly she was waiting for someone to return. Which could indicate a client for her cleaning services, she was at that time at work "among the Jews"...or a date.

So this person, who wanted her to clean at that time of night, or wanted to take her out on a date after all the pubs were shut, was apparently not only late to the point of rudeness, leaving this respectable woman hanging around the club all alone, looking like some tart on the make, but also didn't see fit to come forward afterwards, to explain the victim's innocent reasons for being there and their own failure to show up - for which they would presumably have had a decent alibi?

Alternatively, this person was the killer, who planned the whole thing in advance for some unknown motive and managed to con this seasoned con woman?

It's not looking terribly likely, is it?

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

doss

Hello Caroline. Thanks. Apologies not needed.

If you are worried about a place to sleep, why not just pay the doss money--you have it with you?

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

So this person, who wanted her to clean at that time of night, or wanted to take her out on a date after all the pubs were shut, was apparently not only late to the point of rudeness, leaving this respectable woman hanging around the club all alone, looking like some tart on the make, but also didn't see fit to come forward afterwards, to explain the victim's innocent reasons for being there and their own failure to show up - for which they would presumably have had a decent alibi?

Alternatively, this person was the killer, who planned the whole thing in advance for some unknown motive and managed to con this seasoned con woman?

It's not looking terribly likely, is it?

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

In the scenario youre trying to create here I would agree, not likely at all.

However that has little to do with what I believe may be the case here. I dont presume that the killer was a member of the club, for one. I believe he was employed by the club and was hanging about in the passageway, perhaps with another guy who maybe was smoking a pipe. Perhaps they were waiting for their pay...maybe Security fellows hired for the night. Or just hanging around smoking after the meeting,..like many people did after meetings in the past.

This is one possible scenario I see for Liz, although I can see arguments for and against......Liz Stride comes into the passageway just after 12:35am...why? Because she was asked to come to the side door , leading to the kitchen. There was about 200 people at that meeting and Im sure a good mess to clean up...since Liz has "been at work among the Jews" the previous months, and since her reputation is one of being a very good cleaner, perhaps a member asked her to assist Mrs D, or perhaps Mrs D heard of her and hired her for this event. Lots of perhaps's, sure.....but not unreasonable considering what information we do know about Liz. What if she was hired to help clean the club?

Liz is in the passageway after Smith leaves, and she is being harassed a bit by a security man or 2, assuming...like oh so many ...that she is "on the hustle". Eagle sees her when he enters the gates, but goes inside anyway. Shortly thereafter a person attending the meeting and singsong after leaves via the side door, and as he is leaving he sees a man struggling with a woman just inside the gates. Another is over by a cottage on the other side of the passageway....just smoking his pipe. He beetles off out the gates. He misses Liz's murder by a few seconds.

It could also work without the guy coming out of the kitchen door to see the altercation, or it could work if Eagle meets Liz outside the gates and has her wait for him while he goes inside. That one may imply date...or that he brokered the job for Liz, as he knows some Jews that she has cleaned for recently.

Under that kind of scenario umbrella, we would have the club being responsible for the murder due to the fact that the murderer was employed by them. The members themselves need do nothing wrong that night to have a great deal of trouble dropped into their lap. They already had the issue of where the body was...on their property....but potentially a huge problem if anyone perceived them as guilty of the crime or somehow responsible.

And lets not forget what the officials, and many locals, believed was Jacks ethnicity at that time.

Its for those kinds of reasons that I can see very plausibly certain club members almost forced to provide statements that would circumvent any hint of complicity. The ones employed by the club.

Cheers caz

[caz]

Hello Caroline. Thanks. Apologies not needed.

If you are worried about a place to sleep, why not just pay the doss money--you have it with you?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Who says Stride was worried? She may have been by 12.30, having spent all her money. But Nichols apparently wasn't worried, having spent her doss money three times over. She did have a jolly new bonnet to help attract a further supply, but then Stride had her flower, cachous and designer evening frock.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

This is one possible scenario I see for Liz, although I can see arguments for and against......Liz Stride comes into the passageway just after 12:35am...why? Because she was asked to come to the side door , leading to the kitchen. There was about 200 people at that meeting and Im sure a good mess to clean up...since Liz has "been at work among the Jews" the previous months, and since her reputation is one of being a very good cleaner, perhaps a member asked her to assist Mrs D, or perhaps Mrs D heard of her and hired her for this event. Lots of perhaps's, sure.....but not unreasonable considering what information we do know about Liz. What if she was hired to help clean the club?

Terribly unlikely, Mike, because in that case the person or persons who had hired her, or knew about it, would simply have said so with no comeback on them. "The poor woman must have been cut down by Schwartz's gentile thug, before she could reach the side door to start scrubbing for us."

Why on earth would they have left the police, the press and the outside world with the erroneous impression that she had been there for immoral purposes when murdered on their premises, if they knew she was there to clean for them but just didn't make it before the "Phantom Menace" had apparently struck again?

Would it have been worth being charged with perverting the course of justice, in the event that her purpose for being there had come out because Stride had boasted to all and sundry about the job she had lined up at the club that night? I hardly think so, Mike.

Similarly, I doubt that her killer had made an appointment with her to meet at the club, because she could have boasted about that too.

What does that leave you with? The miserable excuse for a date who stood her up then failed to come forward afterwards to testify that she wasn't soliciting when the fiend struck?

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

spiffy char woman

Hello Mike. Does one normally wear a flower for charring duties?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

intentions

Hello Caroline. Thanks.

Concerned, then?

So you are suggesting solicitation on the spur of the moment? I'd like to know what her intentions were for the evening.

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Hi Lynn,

I don't think I'm 'suggesting' anything with this. I leave that to others - then question their suggestions, which seems to make some a bit cross.

It would be great to know what Stride's intentions had been for the rest of the night when she arrived at the club after midnight. But I guess that will be as hard to ascertain as the motive for her murder, if her killer wasn't a knife-happy opportunist predator.

Love,

Caz
X

[Phil H]

It would be great to know what Stride's intentions had been for the rest of the night when she arrived at the club

We will never know.

Nevertheless, we have some facts to work with.

It appears that Stride took particular care over her apiearance that night. (Clothes brusih etc). Her "beau" appears to have bought her a flower.

Maybe he (a Jew ? - she seems to have worked for Jewish familes as a cleaner) needed to call at the IWM Club and she waited outside.

I think she hoped he would take her home, but left her options open.

Phil

[Jon Guy]

Hi Phil

[B]It appears that Stride took particular care over her apiearance that night. (Clothes brusih etc).

She wore the same clothes (her only clothes) in which she cleaned up after the men who were in the house white washing a couple of rooms.
She asked to borrow a clothes brush, but was refused. I imagine that she just wanted to get some residue of the white wash off her black coloured clothes.

Seems more a case of basic scrubbing up rather than "particular care over her appearance that night".

Nevertheless, we have some facts to work with
Her "beau" appears to have bought her a flower

Unless I`ve missed some new evidence, that can`t be a fact, Phil.

[Phil H]

Give me your evidence then Jon re the flower.

For the rest, your interpretation, NOT mine.

Phil