Where is Liz Stride?

[DVV]

Off-topic, yes.
Or on Mike's fav topic.

[curious4]

Berner Street

Hello Mike, Michael, DLDWatson and all,

One of the things I enjoy on these boards (apart from whodunnit)is the chance to learn more about the social history and conditions at the time. By referring to the Berrner Street as a Jewish Immigrant club we are ignoring a large chunk of social history and also denying new posters the chance to learn more about the origins of socialism. Without clubs like these there would be no pensions, health care, education for children or trades union to fight for decent working conditions today. Conditions for poor working people were grim, 24 hours in a workhouse would have the modern poster screaming for mercy. The match girls, with their rotting jaws, the sweatshops and terrible working conditions are now gone, at least in the western world (sadly not in poorer countries) and the call for change came from small clubs such as these. Their protests were without regard for nationality, ethnicity or religion, Such things were unimportant in the struggle for a better and more secure life. They did not reap the benefits of their struggle but we do. The small beginnings in these clubs did much to ensure the relatively secure lives we live today.

So please don't refer to the Berner street club as a Jewish Immigrant club - it was so much more than this.

Cheers,
C4

PLEASE can we leave this now. I have given the reasons for my objections.

[The Good Michael]

So how long do you think Liz was standing in front of the Jewish immigrant's club before she was accosted? Or do you think she was brought there and then accosted?

Mike

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

I never referred to it as such

Hello Mike, Michael, DLDWatson and all,

One of the things I enjoy on these boards (apart from whodunnit)is the chance to learn more about the social history and conditions at the time. By referring to the Berrner Street as a Jewish Immigrant club we are ignoring a large chunk of social history and also denying new posters the chance to learn more about the origins of socialism. Without clubs like these there would be no pensions, health care, education for children or trades union to fight for decent working conditions today. Conditions for poor working people were grim, 24 hours in a workhouse would have the modern poster screaming for mercy. The match girls, with their rotting jaws, the sweatshops and terrible working conditions are now gone, at least in the western world (sadly not in poorer countries) and the call for change came from small clubs such as these. Their protests were without regard for nationality, ethnicity or religion, Such things were unimportant in the struggle for a better and more secure life. They did not reap the benefits of their struggle but we do. The small beginnings in these clubs did much to ensure the relatively secure lives we live today.

So please don't refer to the Berner street club as a Jewish Immigrant club - it was so much more than this.

Cheers,
C4

PLEASE can we leave this now. I have given the reasons for my objections.

The Jewish aspect is simply data to me. Calling it the Jewish Club is inaccurate. As that was not it's name or it's purported purpose. It is information that needs inclusion though. To remove it is the same as to embellish.

[caz]

Caz,

Scwartz didn't attend the inquest. If you believe him to be such an important witness then why didn't he testify? You have to answer that. Please don't say in order to protect the witness somehow and please don't use the seaside home. If he had something of value, he should have testified. Period. He didn't though so why not?

Hi Droy,

Sorry for the delay in replying.

I don’t know why you think I consider Schwartz to be ‘such an important witness’ that he should have testified at the inquest. I’m not even completely sure we know whose decision it was, Schwartz’s or the authorities, that he didn’t attend. In any case, he did come forward to give his statement to the police on the day of the murder, and he only claimed to witness a minor assault, which clearly wasn’t the cause of death. If he knew anything about the recent murders (Tabram, Nichols and Chapman), he nevertheless didn’t consider Stride to be in mortal danger from BS man, or he would surely have roped in Pipeman to help prevent another tragedy, or if he was too scared he could at the very least have run to fetch the nearest policeman.

Regarding BS Man, half believe he had to be Liz's killer and the other half say it wasn't him. Some of the biggest names (at least in my opinion some of the biggest names in Ripperology) feel it wasn't BS Man. If it wasn't BS Man then Schwartz's tale doesn't have much value at all other than he apparently would have been the last person to see Liz alive.

Which half am I in then, because I don’t believe BS man had to be the killer, nor do I believe he couldn’t have been. I’m open to both possibilities equally. The police obviously didn’t know either way, but they were best placed to judge the value or otherwise of what Schwartz claimed to witness, 15 minutes before the murder was discovered. Whether the tale was invented or he told the truth as he saw it, he wasn’t the last person to see Stride alive. He apparently fled incontinently, leaving BS with Stride, and Pipeman free to return to the scene if he chose to do so.

Earlier in the thread, Ben argued that it was so unlikely for Stride to have been manhandled by one man then murdered by another within 15 minutes, that we can only conclude BS man was her killer, whether he was the ripper or not. I find it very unlikely that Stride was not a ripper victim but not in the least bit unlikely that BS was either the ripper himself or pushed off giving the ripper a golden opportunity to take over while Stride was collecting herself. At 12.45, when BS man was supposedly manhandling Stride, her killer could in theory have been ten minutes’ walking distance away (ie almost as far away as Mitre Square but in any direction) and a prostitute could in theory have tried to pick up several club members in that time, which would make Schwartz’s account entirely irrelevant to who killed her.

Ben would do well to look at the case of Sally Anne Bowman’s ex boyfriend, who would have been charged with her murder (as Ben would charge BS man with Stride’s) had DNA tests not cleared him and proved Mark Dixie’s guilt. Sally and her ex had a long argument in his car parked outside her home. She finally got out and he drove off, but in the few seconds it would have taken for her to walk to her front door, Dixie appeared out of nowhere and stabbed her through the neck. He then retreated into the shadows in case he had disturbed any of the residents, only returning to violate the body and take trophies when he judged the coast to be clear.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Caz,

Quote:
May I turn the question round and ask you why must Stride not have been in the market to earn a few pence in whatever way the buyer at that hour requested? She was completely without funds when found dead. Why must this be interpreted to mean she already had her bed and breakfast sorted (feather pillows, scrambled eggs and smoked salmon, no doubt) courtesy of the new beau who so discourteously left her standing outside the club to become just 'another' murdered woman?

Elizabeth Tanner claims she paid Liz 6d earlier that day. She had money. Apparently she also paid Tanner for a bed the same night meaning she had a place to sleep already plus had 2d for $hits and giggles. She could have been soliciting but it appears she didn't have to.

Tell this to Mike Richards. His contention was that Stride didn’t dip into her sixpence to secure a bed because she had no intention of returning there that night. He argues that the sixpence went on her flower and cachous to make herself more attractive to the man she thought would be meeting her at the club and whisking her off somewhere. If there is evidence that she paid for a bed up front, fully intending to return after whatever business she had at the club, bang goes Mike’s theory. But the fact remains that she was penniless when found dead, and therefore entirely without funds for her next meal or drink, even if she had lined up a bed with her name on it.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hello Caroline. Thanks.

"May I turn the question round and ask you why must Stride not have been in the market to earn a few pence in whatever way the buyer at that hour requested? She was completely without funds when found dead."

Yes, but she had her doss for the night, right? And she could go back to Kidney at any time, right?

"Why must this be interpreted to mean she already had her bed and breakfast sorted (feather pillows, scrambled eggs and smoked salmon, no doubt) courtesy of the new beau who so discourteously left her standing outside the club to become just 'another' murdered woman?"

Don't understand this part. Sorry.

Hi Lynn,

Again, all this refers to what Mike Richards asserted about Stride not having paid for her doss that night, and not having to keep hold of her sixpence either, because she was expecting to meet a man at the club who would take care of her immediate financial needs.

If she was penniless before she reached the club, she was presumably not thinking about going back to her doss yet, right? Or back to Kidney at that point, right?

So what do you think she went to the club for? If it was to meet someone, he either failed to show up before she was murdered, or he did show up and promptly cut her throat.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Daily News October 1. Again, don't have the clipping.

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement . It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had anyone done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and so it happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

Hi DRoy,

Fanny Mortimer’s timings here are only approximate, just as we might expect, so they seem perfectly consistent with her coming out too late to see Stride arriving by herself at Dutfield’s Yard, and a minute or so too late to see the incident Schwartz claimed to witness at 12.45. If she stood there for ten minutes and went back in at 12.56, four minutes before the pony and cart passed, she could have come out at 12.46 and missed all the action. Stride was presumably out of sight inside the yard by then, alive or dying, and her killer could also have remained inside the yard after slitting her throat, watching and listening, and only fleeing when Mortimer had gone back in, or even after the pony and cart arrived and Louis D went into the club.

All we can safely say is that Mortimer saw nothing of Stride at all, and the killer managed to pick his moment to escape apparently unseen by anyone.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

Q & A

Hello Caroline. Thanks.

"So what do you think she went to the club for?"

A question I have asked a thousand times, and to which I have given one thousand, one answers.

Cheers.
LC

[DRoy]

Caz,

Yes that article isn't quoted though when there are two from the same paper the same day that are quoted and it is there she said she was outside almost the entire time between 12:30 - 1:00. I trust her own quotes more than i do the summary story.

You're right though, she didn't see Stride. Neither did Lave or Eagle nor apparently did Goldstein or anyone since Smith. Unless you accept Schwartz. But why accept him when he didn't testify?

I find it odd so many claim to see Stride when nothing had happened to her yet when an apparent assult on her happens (Schwartz's story) nobody saw anything. The murder itself was in a place she was hidden enough to avoid being seen so it makes sense nobody saw that.

Cheers
DRoy

[Wickerman]

Hi Caz.

I’m not even completely sure we know whose decision it was, Schwartz’s or the authorities, that he didn’t attend.

I'm not sure you could avoid a 'summons to appear' just because you choose not to go. 'They' would come and get'cha!

Which half am I in then, because I don’t believe BS man had to be the killer, nor do I believe he couldn’t have been. I’m open to both possibilities equally.

Seems like your the one sat on the same fence as me. I am interested in both sides of the argument, while not being convinced by either.

Earlier in the thread, Ben argued that it was so unlikely for Stride to have been manhandled by one man then murdered by another within 15 minutes,..

This was the East end, anything was possible.
If a person can be kicked and beaten one minute, then while he lay bleeding be robbed by another passerby today, which has been the case more than once. Then certainly Stride could have been one of these unlucky ones, assaulted twice in 15 minutes, not impossible.

At 12.45, when BS man was supposedly manhandling Stride, her killer could in theory have been ten minutes’ walking distance away

He could equally have been inside the yard out of view to Schwartz. By this I mean, we have always assumed Stride was in the gateway alone, though we have no good indication of this.
Stride had never been seen alone that night up to this point, she was always with someone. So who is to say she was not with a man in the shadows of the gateway when BSman staggered passed?
Was this the reason for the aggravation, BSman saw her with another man?

[DRoy]

Caz,

I don’t know why you think I consider Schwartz to be ‘such an important witness’ that he should have testified at the inquest. I’m not even completely sure we know whose decision it was, Schwartz’s or the authorities, that he didn’t attend. In any case, he did come forward to give his statement to the police on the day of the murder, and he only claimed to witness a minor assault, which clearly wasn’t the cause of death. If he knew anything about the recent murders (Tabram, Nichols and Chapman), he nevertheless didn’t consider Stride to be in mortal danger from BS man, or he would surely have roped in Pipeman to help prevent another tragedy, or if he was too scared he could at the very least have run to fetch the nearest policeman.

I've argued before that if Schwartz didn't see anything of value for the inquest then I find it odd Baxter would have had 5 inquest sessions with over 20 witnesses over a 3+week period. He seemed to invite everyone yet not the last person to see her alive and just minutes after being assulted. It's a double edged sword...either invite everyone and extend an unnecessary inquest to determine the who, how, when, what, where or determine the cause of death. If they wanted just the cause of death, couldn't they have figured that out by asking a doctor or two within 10 minutes?

Which half am I in then, because I don’t believe BS man had to be the killer, nor do I believe he couldn’t have been. I’m open to both possibilities equally. The police obviously didn’t know either way, but they were best placed to judge the value or otherwise of what Schwartz claimed to witness, 15 minutes before the murder was discovered. Whether the tale was invented or he told the truth as he saw it, he wasn’t the last person to see Stride alive. He apparently fled incontinently, leaving BS with Stride, and Pipeman free to return to the scene if he chose to do so.

If BS Man existed. The only person who saw him was someone who didn't testify.

In looking at the entire situation from 12:30 on, its not that I am calling Schwartz a liar or covering for the club or anything else. But nobody saw or heard any of Schwartz's version which is either coincidental or it didn't happen. What sold me was Schwartz not testifying. That tipped the scales for me. For some reason his story didn't go further than his statement. Why? No idea but it didn't. None of the senior police or officials hint to Schwartz having something of value. That would lead me to conclude BS Man and Pipeman became non suspects and Schwartz discredited for some reason.

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Tell this to Mike Richards. His contention was that Stride didn’t dip into her sixpence to secure a bed because she had no intention of returning there that night. He argues that the sixpence went on her flower and cachous to make herself more attractive to the man she thought would be meeting her at the club and whisking her off somewhere. If there is evidence that she paid for a bed up front, fully intending to return after whatever business she had at the club, bang goes Mike’s theory. But the fact remains that she was penniless when found dead, and therefore entirely without funds for her next meal or drink, even if she had lined up a bed with her name on it.

Love,

Caz
X

She left the lodging house with 6d and without flowers on her breast and any cashous that we hear of...and later she is found without that money and with the flower arrangement and the cashous. So, hardly conjecture without any foundation. Which of course suggesting a Ripper for this killing would be. I would be very surprised if the cost of those 2 items at the time exceeded 6d.

And for the record Caz, I suspect she was either there for a date, or for work with someone still in attendance at the club...this of course based on her statement that she had been at work "among the Jews" for a few months leading up to this date, and the fact that the weekend she is killed Jewish families were observing religious celebrations. Oh...and the fact that most of the men in attendance that night were Jewish.

Again,....speculation based on existing evidence...rather than fanciful exploration of theories without foundation in the Berner Street murder evidence.

You suggest I insert a lot of theory when I make a post Caz, when in fact anything that I have proposed has foundation somewhere in the accepted evidence. Your choice of a dramatic variance in MO for the Berner Street Killer, (since you assume this killing was done by the same person who killed the first 2 Canonicals), and your belief that Liz Stride was a street prostitute...are 2 theories which are both purely speculatory and without provenance in any known evidence.

Im not the one whose is constantly injecting purely subjective thinking Caz...

Cheers

[Paddy]

Pipeman

The one person that intrigues me is Pipeman.
This may have been mentioned before?
He stepped out of the corner pub? a few doors down from Dutfields yard, I believe?
Was he ever found? Surely he would have been fairly easy to trace?
He alone could verify Schwartz's story, so must have been of great interest to the police.
He bothers me as there is so little written about him.

Pat...................

[Wickerman]

The one person that intrigues me is Pipeman.
This may have been mentioned before?
He stepped out of the corner pub? a few doors down from Dutfields yard, I believe?
Was he ever found? Surely he would have been fairly easy to trace?

In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story. They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts.
Star, 2 Oct. 1888.

Make of that what you will.