Where is Liz Stride?

[The Good Michael]

Calling the Berner Street club a jewish club is like a red rag to a bull to me, because it wasn't, and I think it is important when posting to be accurate.

Gwyneth,

I was being accurate. The flagship newspaper printed there was in Yiddish, the founders were immigrant Jews and the club seems to have been a haven for socialist Jews as they were the immigrants pouring into the country at the time. I always separate the religion and the ethnicity. They were bonded together for several reasons: socialism, youth, education, and ethnicity.

Mike

[curious4]

The club

Hello Mike,

Sorry to disagree, but it was referred to at the time, and by the locals as "the socialist club" not "the jewish club", William Morris and Annie Besant both spoke there, and the membership was not exclusively jewish (I refer you to my previous post with Paul Begg's quote). The club from which Lavende and co were leaving was, I believe, a jewish men's club.

I believe that the club opened its doors to a printing press after all other printers had been bullied into refusing to print the newspaper.

Best wishes,
Gwyneth

[The Good Michael]

Sorry to disagree, but it was referred to at the time, and by the locals as "the socialist club" not "the jewish club", William Morris and Annie Besant both spoke there, and the membership was not exclusively jewish (I refer you to my previous post with Paul Begg's quote). The club from which Lavende and co were leaving was, I believe, a jewish men's club.

you are right of course. Just because it was predominately occupied by Jewish immigrants, and produced materials in the common Yiddish language, doesn't mean it was an ethnic club. I'm sure tons of local Irish men, as an example, used to hang out there and read the editorials of the Arbeter Fraynd. I challenge you to name some members who weren't Jewish, save for Rudolf Rocker who was a visitor and contributor who came along later. Again, you are discomfited by your inability to separate religion from ethnicity in this case, I believe. If that's your take, you are correct. I consider the club a place where people of similar language, status (immigrant), age, education, and social disposition came together to be with like-minded people.

Mike

[curious4]

Blind spots

Mike,

We all have our blind spots.

Gwyneth

[The Good Michael]

We all have our blind spots.

Not in this case. I completely see where you're coming from.

Mike

[curious4]

No, sadly I don't think you do.

[The Good Michael]

No, sadly I don't think you do.

Absolutely I do. You are being sensitive about an issue that isn't an issue to me. I understand that.

Mike

[curious4]

One last time

Hello Mike,

Just one more time and as simply as I can explain. A fishing club, where people meet to fish and discuss fishing is still a fishing club even if the members are 95% eskimos. A club where people meet to discuss socialism is still a socialist club whatever the makeup is of the members. Forget religion, forget ethnicity, if the aim of a club is to discuss and propagate socialism, it is a socialist club.

Gwyneth

[Michael W Richards]

Hello again,

I dont think we need to beat this point to death,... but when the Club has been referred to as a place for Immigrant Jews to gather as members, the same immigrant Jew members who are then referred to by the authorities as "anarchists", and the same immigrant Jewish men who were referred to as "low men" by the neighbors, and when the clubs meeting that night is entitled "Why Jews should be Socialists",... categorizing the club as being populated primarily by immigrant Jews is indeed valid. The Club doesnt have to be called a Jewish Mens Club for it to be one effectively, and the direct relationship many of the local immigrant Jews had with movements like Socialism would have isolated them from many of the national locals anyway.

Like it or not folks....Judaism is a big part of this evenings events....1st murder on the property of a club primarily populated by Immigrant Jews, a possible witness to an attack on that victim by a Jewish man passing by...a 2nd murder within an hour with 3 Jewish witnesses, having just left a Jewish club, passing what at least 1 of them thinks was the soon to be victim and a sailor type male,.... ...and finally a message and a piece of crime scene evidence left at the entrance to Model Homes almost exclusively tenanted by Immigrant Jews.... and a reference to Jews in the chalk message.

There is no way to eliminate the "overtones" here....primarily, the Clubs members were Immigrant Jews, many were German,Polish and Russian,.. and the club was set up to attract Jews to its meetings by virtue of that nights meeting agenda..."Why Jews should be Socialists".

Cheers all

[The Good Michael]

Like it or not folks....Judaism is a big part of this evenings events....1st murder on the property of a club primarily populated by Immigrant Jews, a possible witness to an attack on that victim by a Jewish man passing by...a 2nd murder within an hour with 3 Jewish witnesses, having just left a Jewish club, passing what at least 1 of them thinks was the soon to be victim and a sailor type male,.... ...and finally a message and a piece of crime scene evidence left at the entrance to Model Homes almost exclusively tenanted by Immigrant Jews.... and a reference to Jews in the chalk message.

Well, Judaism wasn't part of the events. Judaism is the religion to be precise. But yes, being Jewish and immigrants and socialists were the connection for all of them but a few.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

Hello Mike,

Just one more time and as simply as I can explain. A fishing club, where people meet to fish and discuss fishing is still a fishing club even if the members are 95% eskimos. A club where people meet to discuss socialism is still a socialist club whatever the makeup is of the members. Forget religion, forget ethnicity, if the aim of a club is to discuss and propagate socialism, it is a socialist club.

Of course, but being Jewish is part of it and cannot be left out of the equation. The truth is, if you are being honest, you thought I was being politically incorrect or you wouldn't have mentioned anything in the first place. I wasn't.

Cheers,

Mike

[curious4]

The truth is

Hello Mike,

Please go back and read what I have written. My first post states that Michael R was wrong to call the club an "immigrant jews' club. I also thought it unnecessary to drag religion into the equation. The club was unpopular because it was a socialist club, not because it had mainly jewish members. At no point have I ever implied that you were not being pc or anything else. I also don't understand why you felt personally under attack when the post was addressed to Michael R.

Regards,
Gwyneth

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

[QUOTE=curious4;260776]Hello Mike,

Please go back and read what I have written. My first post states that Michael R was wrong to call the club an "immigrant jews' club. I also thought it unnecessary to drag religion into the equation. The club was unpopular because it was a socialist club, not because it had mainly jewish members. At no point have I ever implied that you were not being pc or anything else. I also don't understand why you felt personally under attack when the post was addressed to Michael R.

Regards,
Gwyneth[/QUOTE

Is it not possible for it to be unpopular because it is both a socialist club and predominated, don't think that's a word but really should be, by folk of Jewish decent? Despite how simple most people are, they tend to have knack for compartmentalising hate. Sorry for my lack of English skills. Past, Present, and Future.

[DVV]

Isn't this discussion a bit futile ?
How could anarchist/socialist foreigners be popular ?
There is no street bearing the name of Geronimo Caserio in France either.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Dvv

It definitely is off topic. Where is Liz? I would say Berner St. Decent enough probability between 12:30 and after 1:00 am. Well, definite after 1.