Where is Liz Stride?

[curious4]

Socialist club

Hi again,

There is some misunderstanding about who would be called to testify at the Inquest. It has nothing at all to do with whether their statement was given to the police before the Inquest, as was suggested. Witnesses that provided statements that had a direct bearing on what may have happened to Liz just prior to her death would be THE most important witnesses to call to the Inquest.

The fact that Israel Schwartz isnt called means just one of 2 things....either he was so important to the issues at hand that his statement is suppressed as they follow the leads he provided, or.....his statement was determined to have little or no value in the question of how Liz Stride may have died.

Since his alleged attack happens feet away from the actual murder site, and just minutes before the medical examiner says she was cut, his statement, if deemed accurate, would be the most important of all the witnesses.

We do not have any evidence that any of his story was withheld due to ongoing investigations, as we did with Lawendes testimony, so it is logical to assume his story was not considered viable.

Since he is an Immigrant Jew outside an Immigrant Jews club on the night when some 200 Immigrant Jews attended the club for a meeting of Immigrant Jews, and since his story for being there in the first place is ludicrous, I would imagine the authorities believed as I do....his story was strictly for the clubs benefit,.. not an accurate reflection of witnessed events.

There is a possible link between Wess and Schwartz as well.

Without Israel Schwartz, we have a young couple on the street, no-one else, and no sign of Liz Stride after PC Smith left. Which of course means to any thinking person, that she may well have been in that passageway...perhaps with her killer, BEFORE Eagle enters it at 12:40, and while Lave is lingering in it...yet, neither men saw anyone. Including each other.

Hard to believe.

Cheers

Hello Michael,

Please get this straight. The club was a SOCIALIST club - referred to as such at the time.

Paul Begg, citing Thomas B. Eyges:

"Invariably, on Saturday and Sunday evenings, there was a truly international gathering of Russian, Jewish, British, French, Italian, Czech, Polish, and radicals of other nationalities.......It may be said that there, in Berner Street, was laid the foundation for true International Brotherhood of Mankind".

All this obsession with religion - really not good for the liver.

C4

[curious4]

Inquest

To all who doubt this,

Schwarz' evidence was taken up at the inquest. See thread Stride Bruising page 28 onwards.

This is indeed a tangled web.


Best wishes,
C4

[The Good Michael]

Please get this straight. The club was a SOCIALIST club - referred to as such at the time.

All this obsession with religion - really not good for the liver.

It was an anarchist/socialist club whose members where predominately atheist, immigrant Jews. How does that connect to religion? It doesn't.

Mike

[Michael W Richards]

It was an anarchist/socialist club whose members where predominately atheist, immigrant Jews. How does that connect to religion? It doesn't.

Mike

I think Mike you intended to state that the Jewish element in this story isnt germaine as it relates to the perception of the club....yes? Not that Jews can be atheist....which is an oxymoron.

The club was considered an anarchist club by the police, the neighbors spoke of people in the yard after Saturday night meetings that were "low men", and a few of these witnesses attack police with clubs a few months later...on those premises. This also is within a year of a Socialist uprising in the form of a march that was organized by clubs like this one...one that drew blood and cemented ill feelings on both sides.

The club was in a precarious position before Liz Strides murder...it only follows that if they were suspected of committing it the club and its members could be finished at 40 Berner Street.

Im only suggesting they cleansed the story to best suit the survival goals of the club...not that they killed her. A stranger could have jumped in, killed her, and jumped out again...and it would still have posed the same risks to the club. The culprit isnt the issue at this stage, thread wise, whether the club members accounts can be believed is.

Cheers

[curious4]

Immigrant Jew's club?

It was an anarchist/socialist club whose members where predominately atheist, immigrant Jews. How does that connect to religion? It doesn't.

Mike

Hello Mike,

Must have been misled by the words "immigrant jews' club" in the post.

Best wishes,
C4

[The Good Michael]

Must have been misled by the words "immigrant jews' club" in the post.

It's about the ethnicity and not the religion of course since we are talking about atheists for the most part, and the fact that the publications printed on premises were in Yiddish. If you want to read religion into it, that's not what anyone here is talking about, just to clarify.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

I think Mike you intended to state that the Jewish element in this story isnt germaine as it relates to the perception of the club....yes? Not that Jews can be atheist....which is an oxymoron.

Huh? Jewishness is an ethnicity. Jewishness is also a religion. Obviously the religion isn't connected to the club, but the ethnicity is if Yiddish is any indication. It is unfortunate that both things are bound up together in many minds when they shouldn't be.

Cheers,

Mike

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Ah, but only if he carried a knife.
It is conjecture which places one in his hand, not a witness."

Absolutely. But a man who, if Schwartz is telling the truth, was being violent with a woman.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

Maybe because we live in an age where street violence is not common. For us an assault and a murder, though 15 minutes apart, must be connected.

In the rough and violent East end two events separated by 15 minutes might belong to quite separate incidents.

[lynn cates]

separate incidents

Hello Jon. Thanks. More like 5-10 minutes, if you'll forgive the observation.

"In the rough and violent East end two events separated by 15 minutes might belong to quite separate incidents."

Ah, so if they are separated by, oh, say, 45 minutes . . . ? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

"In the rough and violent East end two events separated by 15 minutes might belong to quite separate incidents."

Ah, so if they are separated by, oh, say, 45 minutes . . . ? (heh-heh)

Wait...that would be 3 incidents, not including the altercation in the privy that no one talks about.

Mike

[lynn cates]

independent events

Hello Michael. Thanks.

Oh, very well--four, if you count Mrs. Brown. That, I believe, was yet ANOTHER independent event?

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Oh, very well--four, if you count Mrs. Brown. That, I believe, was yet ANOTHER independent event?

Thing about Mrs. Brown...Mrs. Brown had a lovely daughter

Mike

[lynn cates]

'Erman's 'Ermits

Hello Michael. Thanks.

Indeed. Girls as sharp as her are somethin' rare.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Indeed. Girls as sharp as her are somethin' rare.

Sharp? And a pun to boot. If that don't beat all.

Mike

[curious4]

The club

It's about the ethnicity and not the religion of course since we are talking about atheists for the most part, and the fact that the publications printed on premises were in Yiddish. If you want to read religion into it, that's not what anyone here is talking about, just to clarify.

Mike

Hello Mike,

Sorry about the delay in answering.

Calling the Berner Street club a jewish club is like a red rag to a bull to me, because it wasn't, and I think it is important when posting to be accurate.

As regards being jewish I would regard anyone who embraced judaism as a jew. A religion like any other. However, I understand that many people think differently and whether or not the jews are an ethnic group is a moot point (and one which would take a good deal of mooting!).

I think, bearing in mind how the jewish community regarded the club, the question in this thread is more whether Schwarz was a commited socialist and would have wanted to protect the club's reputation for that reason. As it already had quite a reputation, and given that the murder was commited on its premises, I think that would have been like shutting the stable door after the horse was out, to coin a phrase, and very unlikely.

Best wishes,
Gwyneth