Motive for the Broad Shouldered Man

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:
"Keep in mind she should have had some money on her but did not, so where did it go? "

Of course, it could well have gone into Jacks pockets, as a welcome spin-off effect of the kill. That, however, does not go to show that he ordered them to empty their pockets. If he did, he would have done so putting them at knifepoint, and that would have involved larger risks of the victims screaming blue murder before he cut. Producing a knife would have had increasingly sinister implications as the autumn drew on that year.
My guess is that he rifled through their pockets only after they were cut and dead.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Fisherman,

I absolutely agree with your last post and BS Man most certainly could have been Jack (I have strong doubts about Blotchy and Sunburn, though). Did my robbery explanation above better explain things? It's really a very simple explanation.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Oops, I guess we were posting at the same time.

If he did, he would have done so putting them at knifepoint, and that would have involved larger risks of the victims screaming blue murder before he cut. Producing a knife would have had increasingly sinister implications as the autumn drew on that year.
My guess is that he rifled through their pockets only after they were cut and dead.

Holding them at knifepoint and announcing a robbery might have been, to his mind, the only way to guarantee they WOULD NOT scream and would comply with his wishes. Such things were common and such an approach would make them think this man was no murderer. Charles Manson used precisely this approach to subdue his victims, as have a million other murderers, and with alarming success. It allows the victim to feel they're in control - that if they choose to comply they will not be harmed.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

If the BS man was not Jack and if robbery was indeed the motive, then why kill her? I don't see the police going all out to find a man who robbed a prostitute of a few coins. On the other hand, killing her could get him hanged.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

You got me wrong there cowboy. I'm with you. I think Jack killed Liz.

My apologies. I thought the only people left who saw Liz as a Ripper victim were myself and the good people of Sweden. And now that Glenn's book is out...

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Tom, I have no trouble seeing the possibility of a robbery scenario - it is all totally plausible. And your explanation of why you believe that it could have served as a means to silence the victims is as functional too.

It has been up at the boards before, and I have had time to ponder it. To me, it is a functioning alternative scenario, but it is not the one I put at the very top of my list - which may of course be a mistake on my behalf.Thought-evoking though it is, it does not sit well with me on all counts, one of them being the fact that I believe that Jacks aim was to subdue and kill as quickly as possible, checking for additional takings only after the strike.

If we take Chapman, for instance, it is the case where it is perhaps most evident that the killer and his victim had an agreement on payed-for sex. In Buckīs Row and Mitre Square, there seems to be more of an odd chance that the killer just lept at his victim with no preludes, whereas in Hanbury Street, we have the agreed-on walk through the building together, headed for some backyard sex. And it just seems an awkward scenario to first go along with the sex proposal, then turning it into a robbery, after which the third - and real - objective surfaces; the killing.
I can see that such a plan would have itīs advantages: luring her away from the open street into a more secluded spot, silencing her at knifepoint and then going about the business he came for. It works. But it has an element of over-elaboration to it.
If he was really that cucumber cool, then why did he not pursue the same line with Nichols and Eddowes, sneaking into a backyard or some other hidden venue, before playing his cards? Certainly Bucks Row, but of course also Mitre Square has an element of desperation to them;it is as if it was totally indifferent to him what or who came along - he had made his mind up to kill, there and then, and my feeling is that there were no preludes at all involved.

Another thing to ponder in Chapmanīs case is that she is the one victim that evinces obvious signs of strangulation. And where does that leave us with the robbery scenario? Did he enter the backyard with her with Chapman believing that she was dealing with a punter, only to push her up against the fence, pointing his knife at her, demanding her to empty her pockets, whereafter he drops his knife, grabs her by the throat and throttles her, lays her down, picks up the knife again and cuts her?

I canīt get it any more tangible than this, Tom. Still, it is enough for me to hesitate to go along with it more than as an alternative scenario.

The best!
Fisherman

[perrymason]

I think a motive for the Broadshouldered Man might lie in his state of inebriation, and his vocal rejection by Liz...but not in the street.

Thug....drunk....carries a knife, wants a bit o' crumpet...a woman who he might have seen out whoring before... with missing teeth...turns him down, and pulls away and acts "all the lady" on him....humiliating him. Who gets turned down by a toothless unfortunate? How bad do you have to be to be turned down by a woman with no home, no food and likely a drinking problem? And missing 4 or 5 teeth.

You might say, who cares..if its only him and Pipeman before Schwartz saunters by? True...if the story setting is accurate...and this occurred where and when Israel said it did. But...if Israel was a club member himself...and at the meeting, and like after many meetings before, he is in the yard with other members...including BS Man, maybe having a smoke.....then the humiliation factor is present. In front of his friends....."why you smart mouth little whore, too good for Old Broadshouldered Man are we?...'ere...dont you walk away from me you bitch"....grab scarf, pull and twist, pull out knife, run across throat, drop victim. Then sober realization... poop pants and flee.

Club members dash inside. Israel, who saw all this, runs out the gate home. And bit by bit members inside come back out to figure out what to do about this...."this aint good" says Kozebrodski, Eagle peering over his shoulder at Liz agrees..."something must be done, we cant have a woman murdered on Club property"...they might get blamed for housing the Ripper himself.

So...the answer is, this all started on the street...involving passers by. The fiend just brought her into the empty yard....the club had nothing to do with this.

Best regards.

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

The scenario you descibe is certainly possible especially if the BS man was inebriated. But to me, it seems a very hard core response to a slight. I would expect a slapping around instead or in addition to the knife. The cut to the throat seems to indicate a desire to kill when other means of retaliating were available to him.

c.d.

[c.d.]

It occurred to me that rape or a sexual assault would be another option for the BS man but we don't see evidence of that. We just see an intent to kill.

On the other hand, what Schwartz witnessed might not have been the first interaction between the two. Maybe it took place earlier that evening or at another time.

c.d.

[perrymason]

Hi Michael,

The scenario you descibe is certainly possible especially if the BS man was inebriated. But to me, it seems a very hard core response to a slight. I would expect a slapping around instead or in addition to the knife. The cut to the throat seems to indicate a desire to kill when other means of retaliating were available to him.

c.d.

I'd agree with that cd, and my reasoning is that it wasn't a conscious thought..it was a muddled drunk reaction. One that Im guessing sobered him up quickly.

Bigger type guy...bully model...swagger and bravado when drunk, and a mean temper...smack a woman without thinking of it. But I dont think hes a serial man. Nor do I think he was bright. But I do think some club members were...like Wess, and maybe Eagle.

You know Toms suggestion of robbery fits that model too...if hes harassing her for her earnings,...and she declined, because she had none. So he lost his temper.

Cheers cd.