Motive for the Broad Shouldered Man

[c.d.]

One of the problems that I have with the BS man being Liz's killer is his motive. If we exclude Kidney (and please lets do that for this thread) or some lover of sorts, what motives surface? I think it is safe to rule out robbery. The prevailing view seems to be that it was in retaliation for some slight such as being turned down as a client. That never struck me as a particularly great motive. Even assuming that the BS man was drunk, why not just let it go with a good cussing out or a few blows to face? And if Liz was attempting to defend herself, how hard would it be to cut her throat? Why not a stab to another part of her body? I know these are duplicative questions to another Liz thread, but I never saw what I thought were good answers to those questions. Maybe this time we can simply focus on possible motives.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Hi cd!

Well, you know my stance; I would be very careful to exclude Kidney/some sort of lover. I think that the fact that BS tries to drag her out into the street, away from the Yard and its doors, is very telling.

If, however, we do exclude Kidney/lover, there are still a few possible explanations here.
It could have been a clubman, who distinctly disliked to see a prozzie doing business outside his club.
It could have been an aquiantance who felt that he was being dragged in the dirt by her soliciting.
It could have been the odd religious man who wanted the prostitutes off the streets of London.

Problem is, it is very hard to imagine that these categories of men would move on to cutting her throat...? No such problem with the Kidney/lover perspective, though.

The fact that he chose throatcutting over stabbing may of course to at least some extent owe to the fact that throatcutting would have been very prevalent on the minds of all Eastenders that autumn.

The best, cd!
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Hi Fisherman,

I see you managed to sneak in som Kidneys stuff after all. But I concur with your point. Other motives that we can come up with seem to require a big leap to get to the level of throat cutting.

c.d.

[Jon Guy]

I think that the fact that BS tries to drag her out into the street, away from the Yard and its doors, is very telling.

Hello Fisherman

This is from memory so this may go horribly wrong !!!

Of the two accounts we have of Schwartz` story, neither clearly demonstrate that she was pulled out into the street ?

Of the police version, he turns her around and pushes her onto the footway.
Of the newspaper account, she is pushed into the passageway.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

One of the problems that I have with the BS man being Liz's killer is his motive.

I'm a little unclear here. Why does the BS man need any more of a motive than, say, the man with the red neckerchief seen by Lawende? Or Liz Long's deerstalker man, or Blotchy man or Wideawake man etc? If BS was Jack the Ripper he didn't need a motive. If he wasn't Jack the Ripper, he's still the most likely killer of Stride, irrespective of motive...unless Schwartz lied.

All the best,
Ben

[Tom_Wescott]

CD,

I'm not convinced that BS Man was Stride's killer. He may very well have been an uppity Morris Eagle returning from walking his girl home. He may have been a figment of Schwartz's imagination. He may simply have been a drunk would-be punter who became rude before going on his way. But for the sake of the thread, assuming he was Stride's killer, his motive may indeed have been robbery, as I've written elsewhere. The cachous in her hand suggests to me that before being murdered she was asked to empty her pockets. The tissue packet of cachous became caught between her thumb and forefinger just as a piece of paper currency would get caught in your hand if you hurridly reached in your pocket for change. I believe this is also how Chapman's items ended up at her feet and how the thimble ended up by Eddowes' hand.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

Well I don't think the BS man was Jack in which case I would like to believe that he had some motive as opposed to a spur of the moment whim.

Hi Tom,

Robbery could be a motive but you would think that the BS could find a target more likely to have money than a street prostitute.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:
"The cachous in her hand suggests to me that before being murdered she was asked to empty her pockets ... I believe this is also how Chapman's items ended up at her feet and how the thimble ended up by Eddowes' hand."

Not convinced, Tom - though it is in no way impossible, of course.

First off, if they were asked to empty their pockets, they obviously did not do so in extenso; there were many an item in the pockets as they were found.

And if this happened, was it just a manouvre of diversion on the killer´s behalf? Since he did not wait to have the pockets totally emptied, it would seem that he was never intent on doing so from the outset.
And if he WAS, it would be slightly daft - why would the victims haul out whatever money they could have earned? Meaning that he would probably have to go through emptying their pockets himself afterwards, anyhow.

It somehow raises more questions than it provides answers, I think - but then again, what else is
new...?

Cd, of course there may have been more lucrative victims about than prostitutes, but we do know that the prozzies were extorted and robbed by the likes of the Ol´Nichols gang. They would have been easy prey.

The best, cd, Tom!
Fisherman

[Ben]

The cachous in her hand suggests to me that before being murdered she was asked to empty her pockets....I believe this is also how Chapman's items ended up at her feet and how the thimble ended up by Eddowes' hand.

A very plausible suggestion, Tom, and one I hadn't considered.

Hi CD,

BS man was quite plausibly the killer of the other victims. If you look at other serial killers, such as Bundy and Kurten, you'll notice some fairly substantial changes in the way that they apporach their victims.

Best regards,
Ben

[c.d.]

A very plausible suggestion, Tom, and one I hadn't considered.

Hi CD,

BS man was quite plausibly the killer of the other victims. If you look at other serial killers, such as Bundy and Kurten, you'll notice some fairly substantial changes in the way that they apporach their victims.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

But then you have to ask yourself why the BS man went on to kill Liz after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. Very different from the image of the shadowy Jack that we have in our minds.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

CD,

And what other kind of woman should the BS Man have expected to meet on the East End streets at 1am?

Fisherman,

If it were a robbery, she'd be told to give him her money, therefore she wouldn't have emptied ALL of her pockets, merely the one with the money in it. Keep in mind she should have had some money on her but did not, so where did it go? In the case of Chapman, she would have had no money on her and would have told her killer this. He would then say 'empty your pockets', which she did. She was then robbed of her rings and as I've written in RN it seems likely her bottles of medicine and lotion (which would have been in her pockets) were also taken as they were seen on her earlier but were not found on her corpse.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ben]

Hi CD,

you have to ask yourself why the BS man went on to kill Liz after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man

Probably because he'd passed the point of no return. Better than allowing Stride to escape, alert the police and provide a description. She'd be one more potentially incriminating witness after all.

All the best,
Ben

[Tom_Wescott]

But then you have to ask yourself why the BS man went on to kill Liz after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. Very different from the image of the shadowy Jack that we have in our minds.

Then perhaps you should consider that the image of Shadowy Jack you have in your mind doesn't fit the reality of the man who committed these murders. If you're interested in finding a way to fit the facts to your fantasy then it's no wonder you're so eager to dismiss Stride from the list.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Cd writes:

"Very different from the image of the shadowy Jack that we have in our minds."

...which may well prove a completely useless approach!

BS could of course have been Jack. The man seen by Lawende could have been Jack. Blotchy could have been Jack. The "sunburnt" man that attacked Ada Wilson could have been Jack.

Moreover, they may have been one and the same man; BS was a sturdy fellow, and so was Blotchy. Blothy was red in the face - as was the sunburnt man. And so on.
The evasive Jack, never seen by anybody, is a product of our fantasy more than anything else.

The best, cd!
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Then perhaps you should consider that the image of Shadowy Jack you have in your mind doesn't fit the reality of the man who committed these murders. If you're interested in finding a way to fit the facts to your fantasy then it's no wonder you're so eager to dismiss Stride from the list.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

You got me wrong there cowboy. I'm with you. I think Jack killed Liz.

c.d.