Originally posted by c.d.
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Stride & Diemschutz
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Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
So how Stride came to be at the gateway of Dutfield's Yard, and who she came with, need not concern us? Context is irrelevant?
If it was possible to ascertain who she arrived with, as in actually, not in theory, then yes, that would be very relevant.
It's an argument against the idea that she had to be an active prostitute to be a victim. She didn't.Thems the Vagaries.....
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Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
I'm confused. Who's this Jack person? Is it the man holding the parcel wrapped in newspaper? When does this Jack enter the scene, and when does he leave it, apparently unseen?
I thought it was a bundle of Arbiters Freint?Thems the Vagaries.....
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I am more and more of the opinion that Stride turned out to be the wrong type of victim as it were for JtR, hence the throat cutting and no mutilation. Maybe she was not soliciting and took umbrage at being propositioned or just did not quite fit as the type of person he was after (put off by some personal trait?). She ends up more trouble that she was worth, so to avoid identification or some kind of ruckus, he quickly kills her and moves on.Best wishes,
Tristan
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Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post
**** knows mate, that's why it's an unsolved case. When did he enter and leave, unseen? Again, I don't know, but he obviously did, hence the dead body.
Whatever the case, Jack still has to be woven into a timeline, while making at least some sense of witness accounts.
I thought it was a bundle of Arbiters Freint?
Hi All, Here is Elizabeth Stride. Let's see if she fits into the accepted story. Name: Elizabeth Sarah Jane Stride Sex: F Birth: ABT 1832, Minster in Sheppey, Kent Death: UNKNOWN Father: Thomas Stride b: ABT 1796 Mother: Eleanor Beauchamp b: ABT 1800 Grandfather: James Stride b: 1759 –––––&
Hi all, I'm sure this has probably been asked before, but then hasn't most things JTR related. So why were the Police so convinced that Stride was a victim of JTR ? Could it be they knew something that we dont know about today? I find it strange that they seemed convinced, without it seems, any mimimal doubt, which surely
That x-ray in the first post is obviously not of a parcel or paper bag. However, looking something like the bag Leon Goldstein was carrying when he snuck out of Dutfield's Yard, which subsequently ended up in a lodging room at 22 Batty Street, it is nonetheless totally appropriate.Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing
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Its entirely possible that someone might have mistaken Stride being out that night her soliciting, and although there is no evidence she was in fact soliciting, she could have been. Its the circumstances that tell us anything about why she was there. If you assemble the pieces youd have to conclude that there were no witnesses who saw her go off somewhere private with any man, though she spoke with some. She was sober, appointed nicely with a flower arrangement. That she acquired after leaving the boarding house with her 6d, she did not have it on when first leaving. She had something to freshen her mouth. A skirt that went down to her boot tops, one she wanted to brush any lint from.
It would seem as cd conceded earlier that she may well have been there to meet someone, or to clean, as she was doing in previous weeks "among the jews".
The discussion that the fact that the first 2 acknowledged they were soliciting...(again, not in the evidence of any other alleged Canonical investigation), might not be relevant to the killer leads down I believe a dead end road. The fact that the man preyed out late at night, that the women he would see were homeless or soliciting is all well and good, but lets not forget these crimes were very quiet overall. The fact that he gets the woman to accompany him to dark places suggests strongly that she did so on economic grounds, even while her kind were being murdered in that neighbourhood. After the 2 murders in late Aug-early Sept the streets would have been on edge at night for street women. Only the ones that had to still walked the streets.
On that last point, do we have any evidence that says Liz had to work that night? Seems to me she thought she might stay elsewhere that night.. not just come back to the lodging house at daylight. She couldnt even estimate when she would in fact return. Or IF for that matter.
That last line sparked a thought....since she didnt know when, or if, she would return, did she have reason to suspect she might meet with trouble? Never considered that before actually...but an interesting tangent.
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Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
I'm confused. Who's this Jack person? Is it the man holding the parcel wrapped in newspaper? When does this Jack enter the scene, and when does he leave it, apparently unseen?
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Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
There are 20-30 men at the location she is killed at at the time she is killed. How many men did it take to kill Liz? The only place you need to look for her killer is among those men who were already there, but unseen from the street.
Mortimer doesn't see Stride or the man, so where did they go?
You can't ignore the last person seen with the victim, by a credible witness.
The thing with the people inside, is that most of the them are together in groups, most of the time.
It is only those who are down in the yard at any stage, or in the Arbeter Fraint rooms, that could be of interest.
Do you suspect anyone in particular?
As for how many men did it take to kill Liz - well here is my list of murder constraints/criteria (with new additions) ...
Apparent lack of noise
Pattern of bruising/pressure marks
Very tight scarf, turned to the left
Appearing to have been laid gently down
Cachous lodged between thumb and forefinger
Contusion to side of face
Plastered with mud down left side
Unusual state of heart
Absence of arterial spray
Have I forgotten anything? Awkward position of body relative to wound, perhaps?
Anyway, are we looking at a one or multi-man job? Or do we need to split the list across two or more distinct events? You tell me ...Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing
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Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
The line I highlighted above, that seem right to you? What the medical examiners actually concluded is the opposite, that there WAS knife skills evident in the cases of Polly and Annie..and as we know there are opinions on both sides of the fence with Kate.
'There had been no skilful mutilation [in Stride's case] as [was evident] in the cases of Nichols and Chapman, and no unskilful injuries [in Stride's case] as [were evident] in the case in Mitre-Square - possibly the work of an imitator; but there had been the same skill exhibited in the way in which the victim had been entrapped, and the injuries inflicted, so as to cause instant death and prevent blood from soiling the operator, and the same daring defiance of immediate detection...'
So not the 'opposite' at all then. It does seem that you regularly manage to get the wrong end of the stick when reading the source materials, which would explain a lot.
Anyway, no biggy here. The main thing is that Stride's murder was deemed comparable to the previous two, in terms of the injury inflicted with skill, to cause instant death, while preventing the killer from becoming blood soaked, and the same daring defiance of immediate detection.
The "injuries" on Liz referred to amounted to a single throat cut, which neither Polly, Annie or Kate suffered. They all had double cuts.
We also have evidence both prior victims confided to others the night they were killed that they were soliciting. Is there evience in Liz Strides case that was her situation that night? Flowers, cashous, boot top length skirt...sober.......
What youve said before is that these women were all part time prostitutes....but were they? And even if you could prove that...which you cant by the way...youd still have to prove that was Strides story that night.
Unless youre claiming that not only does he alter his whole methodology this night, but he also doesnt seek out the same kind of women who allow him to get them into the dark by virtue of their occupation at that moment.
Would the ripper have steered well clear of trying his luck with a woman like Stride, just because she wore a flower, or a particular type of skirt, or wasn't obviously drunk? How do you know what his 'whole methodology' was, based on just two cases? If the Yorkshire Ripper had quit after his first two attacks, what would his 'whole methodology' have looked like, and how quickly did that picture change in reality, as his killing career progressed?
Why not take a pragmatic approach, just use what evidence is there for that one murder, and stop inserting your ideas of how much this killer must have changed in order to have this fit and established pattern of behavior and victimology.
Why would Annies killer change anything? He apparently got what he was after, from whom he chose, and escaped scott free.
Now he just wants a single cut...on a woman we have no proof was doing the same thing as Annie was when they met?
One question keeps coming up here caz...why do we have to imagine a previous killer when Strides kill is essentially nothing like the priors. Or subsequent victims for that matter.
Pretending only this Jack guy cuts throats at this time in that area is provably wrong anyway.
"Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov
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Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post
Hi C.D,
As you earlier said, it's a moot point.
Stride could have been out collecting for a convent, dodging the rain or ducking into the shadows to avoid Mormons. Her intentions are secondary to whatever her killer perceived her intentions to be. She was a lone woman in a vulnerable position. That's all she was guilty of that night.
"Yes", and he'd have taken what he came for, even with pony hooves pounding in his ears.
A sharp "No!" followed by a stinging slap round the chops, and he'd have apologised profusely and moved on.
Of course, Michael's ripper could have done neither, because the men in white coats had taken him away by then, with admirable justification, all things considered.
And I thought the Brits had a monopoly over eccentricity.
Love,
Caz
X"Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov
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Originally posted by caz View Post
Ah, but Michael Richards has this vision of a killer who didn't want just any lone woman in a vulnerable position. Oh no. He wanted a prostitute's womb or nothing. So if he had encountered Stride and asked her if she was a prostitute, her answer would have dictated her fate.
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Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View PostSometimes it's hard to tell what someone means by 'Jack' - is it just a placeholder, or something more specific?
Whatever the case, Jack still has to be woven into a timeline, while making at least some sense of witness accounts.
If we think of where Stride was standing, and the time of night, it doesn't take much imagination to see why a man might jump to certain unsavoury conclusions about her, whether he ever used prostitutes - which I happen to think Jack did - or thoroughly disapproved of their presence in the area. I doubt most men's first thought would be that she had probably come to clean the club, or was waiting for her boyfriend to take her clubbing. They might have got her wrong, but then so might her killer.
A disgruntled punter could have killed her for rejecting his advances, wrongly perceiving her to be available, but once we allow for that reasonable possibility, it must surely follow that a disgruntled Jack could have done the same, and wrongly assumed she would agree to accompany him somewhere they were less likely to be disturbed.
If we didn't have the striking similarities between this case and the others, as described in the summing up at Stride's inquest, I'd be far more inclined to favour a disgruntled punter with a knife and a belly full of beer, teaching the woman a lesson she had no time to learn and he had no time to regret. But for me, the similarities make such a scenario - angry man, killing for the first and only time - considerably less likely than our active cut throat, using skills he had at his fingertips, and they can't simply be airbrushed out of the record.
"Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov
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