How Would Jack the Ripper Have Reacted?

[Tecs]

can left unopened!

And that is what happens when people write things, or attempt to describe things.

Doing the best we can, there are slight differences. Then someone listening or reading interprets something a completely different way, and off we go!

Appreciate your checking on this!

curious

No problem.

You are quite right and without trying to swerve the thread, I've always argued this in the case of Major Smith. Author after author talk about him saying that he saw the blood stained water "gurgling" down the plughole as if to point out his unreliability and exaggerated nature of his memoirs.

I know I'm setting myself up for a fall but I am sure Smith never once said the word gurgling and I have always taken his words to mean he at some point arrived and saw the sink with blood stained water around the sides of the basin or perhaps just left in the basin itself, if there was a plug. In other words, nobody had used it since the ripper. Inference, he was minutes behind the Ripper, which may have been true. He never said he was seconds behind as far as I remember.

Even excellent writers such as Paul Begg have fallen into this trap.

regards,

[lynn cates]

por que?

Hello Velma. Thanks.

Yes, why indeed?

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

Thanks, Errata,
Now that you mention it, I do recall that discussion.

So, I looked it up and apparently the Vagus nerve is actually in the carotid sheath between the internal carotid artery and the internal jugular vein, so it is entirely possible that nerve was affected.

Now, just another thought --- if the heart stopped, would she have continued to bleed out?

Dr. Phillips went on to remark that there was an unusual flow of blood considering the stature and nourishment of the body . . .

Interesting information.

Thanks, Errata.

curious

She would have. Blood pressure is not dependent of the heart beating. It's arterial walls etc. So the blood would come out with the regular amount of force. The only difference there might be, and under the circumstances it's not terribly likely, was that that after a bit, the blood would be darker when it came out, having had it's oxygen exhausted. But that would be damned hard to find after 15 minutes when the exsanguinated blood started really clotting up.

As for the Cachous... If you've ever seen someone actually faint, it happens one of two ways. People who faint from exhaustion, illness, fever, look like a puppet whose strings have been cut. They actually lose control of their muscles, and they crumple. Sometimes they even do this while retaining consciousness. Their muscles will literally no longer support an upright position.

People who faint from a vasovagal reflex, a headrush for example, stiffen and fall like a felled tree. Kind of spectacular. I used to do this all the time. They faint because of circulation issues, not muscle control issues. Besides that, they are dizzy as all get out, and lose their equilibrium. My parents used to have fun with keeping me upright during these spells.They would see me stiffen, see my eyes lose focus, and sort of lunge towards me to keep me from falling. I would remain stiff until it was over, and then relax suddenly. People with a vasovagal episode don't fall over because they relax, they fall over because they are as stiff as a board and cannot step out to catch themselves when they start to sway from dizziness. And I at least did clench my fists during these episodes. I would in fact come to on the floor still holding a soda bottle, or a book. Stiffening is an ineffective reflex in order to regulate circulation. I mean, it works to an extent, because by clenching muscles you are constricting blood vessels in the muscles a little bit, but on a global scale (ie: your whole body) it probably does more harm than good.

Like slapping a wasp has never worked out for anyone in the history of ever, but we do it reflexively anyway.

It could be that the jerk triggered the syncope, which would be the stiffening, and the cut is actually what stopped the heart. It would be not dissimilar to strumming a guitar string, and then snapping it while it's still vibrating. It makes a not uncommon reaction catastrophic. (For non string players, it's the vibrating strings snapping that takes out an eye. The still ones, like when you are tuning, behave in a somewhat predictable way)

[curious]

She would have. Blood pressure is not dependent of the heart beating. It's arterial walls etc. So the blood would come out with the regular amount of force. The only difference there might be, and under the circumstances it's not terribly likely, was that that after a bit, the blood would be darker when it came out, having had it's oxygen exhausted. But that would be damned hard to find after 15 minutes when the exsanguinated blood started really clotting up.

As for the Cachous... If you've ever seen someone actually faint, it happens one of two ways. People who faint from exhaustion, illness, fever, look like a puppet whose strings have been cut. They actually lose control of their muscles, and they crumple. Sometimes they even do this while retaining consciousness. Their muscles will literally no longer support an upright position.

People who faint from a vasovagal reflex, a headrush for example, stiffen and fall like a felled tree. Kind of spectacular. I used to do this all the time. They faint because of circulation issues, not muscle control issues. Besides that, they are dizzy as all get out, and lose their equilibrium. My parents used to have fun with keeping me upright during these spells.They would see me stiffen, see my eyes lose focus, and sort of lunge towards me to keep me from falling. I would remain stiff until it was over, and then relax suddenly. People with a vasovagal episode don't fall over because they relax, they fall over because they are as stiff as a board and cannot step out to catch themselves when they start to sway from dizziness. And I at least did clench my fists during these episodes. I would in fact come to on the floor still holding a soda bottle, or a book. Stiffening is an ineffective reflex in order to regulate circulation. I mean, it works to an extent, because by clenching muscles you are constricting blood vessels in the muscles a little bit, but on a global scale (ie: your whole body) it probably does more harm than good.

Like slapping a wasp has never worked out for anyone in the history of ever, but we do it reflexively anyway.

It could be that the jerk triggered the syncope, which would be the stiffening, and the cut is actually what stopped the heart. It would be not dissimilar to strumming a guitar string, and then snapping it while it's still vibrating. It makes a not uncommon reaction catastrophic. (For non string players, it's the vibrating strings snapping that takes out an eye. The still ones, like when you are tuning, behave in a somewhat predictable way)

Thought-provoking, Errata, thanks.

The folks I have watched faint have just flowed down, as though they had no bones.

Now, Liz was bent, almost in a fetal position -- not quite as bent. But if she had stiffened, we don't know that she was caught by her attacker, she could just have fallen.

I notice Dr. Phillips mentioned there was a slight amount of mud on the right side of her jacket, but the left side had much more mud (was plastered) and we all know she was lying on her left side.

So, let's say she fell, the killer got her into position to cut her neck -- then just left.

Ok, let's see where we are:

She had gotten rid of BS man and got out her cachous -- Lynn's suggestion of relaxing.

In the darkness that we know existed there in the yard, a pair of hands descended on her shoulders -- indicated by the marks just below her clavicles.

Phillips stated:

"an abrasion of the skin, about an inch and a quarter in diameter, under the right clavicle" and

" Over both shoulders, especially the right, from the front aspect under colar bones and in front of chest there is a bluish discolouration"

Then what? In the dark the attacker grabbed the scarf? got lucky, because surely he could not see, but grabbed and got the end of the handkerchief worn around her neck and pulled.

strides stiffens and sways . . . falls, and killer gets her into position to cut throat . . .

then just leaves.

is that about where we are?


Errata,

when you stiffened and fell, were you conscious for some of the time, but then you mention coming too with the soda can in your hand.

So, you did lose consciousness part of the time, right?

curious

[lynn cates]

Baxter

Hello Velma. Was her attacker already in the yard?

Did you notice what Baxter said about those two bruises in his summary?

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Velma. Was her attacker already in the yard?

Did you notice what Baxter said about those two bruises in his summary?

Cheers.
LC

two hands originally, but then he stated they were not really bruises.

How do you interpret that, Lynn?

Thx,

V

[lynn cates]

origin

Hello Velma. Thanks.

I was thinking about, in his summation, he suggested (as per the medicos) that they had an origin NOT connected with the murder.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Velma. Thanks.

I was thinking about, in his summation, he suggested (as per the medicos) that they had an origin NOT connected with the murder.

Cheers.
LC

I sort of got that, but then sort of didn't.

thanks, Lynn.

[Errata]

Errata,

when you stiffened and fell, were you conscious for some of the time, but then you mention coming too with the soda can in your hand.

So, you did lose consciousness part of the time, right?

curious

No it was full blown syncope, so I did in fact black out. But because it was circulation related, it didn't last long at all because when horizontal your circulation evens out. So I would stand up, get the head rush, feel dizzy, then black out. When I blacked out, I stiffened, still swaying from the dizziness, would drop like a tree, and then come to a second later. I had a loss of awareness lasting maybe two seconds. It just happened to be an eventful two seconds. It could be argued that the blackout is your body's way of forcing you to lie down. Just as the classical faints from exhaustion, horror, fever, etc. could be argued to be your body's way of forcing you to get some sleep.

But (and here is why my parents might be psychopaths, because they are a doctor and a nurse and therefor knew better) if my parents intervened and kept me from falling, and kept me upright, it lasted longer. For maybe 10 - 20 seconds. And then I would fold like the cinematic faint, because the release of stiffness happened a second or so before becoming fully aware. And that gave me a wicked headache. Though to be fair the three or four times I hit the coffee table on the way down also gave me a wicked headache. Which is why the jury is still out of the sadism of my parents.

I would speculate that if Stride suffered vasosagal syncope, that she stiffened and started to fall. If her killer caught her, keeping her somewhat upright, the syncope would have lasted longer. Maybe long enough to get a throat cut in, if he was goal oriented. If on the other hand he lowered her to the ground, she would have regained consciousness, probably before he cut her. Which doesn't mean she could have escaped or even fought, but she would have brought her hands up. Thus releasing the cachous.

I think he yanked her back towards him with the neckerchief, and then immediately cut her throat while she was still upright. Perhaps still even falling backwards. At which point he either stepped out of the way and let her fall, or just stopped supporting her and she fell. I think it was very fast. I think she probably landed twisted. I'm going to take a stab at explaining this position, but I might suck at it. Essentially fetal position, but with her head on her left arm, right arm just dropped, chest and back curved, like she was trying to touch her forehead to her thighs, with her right shoulder over the line of her left. It's called a three quarters position, essentially because three quarters of your body is facing in a particular direction. And I think that she used the last of her life to roll on her side. Her heart had likely stopped, and she may have not been able to breathe,and was bleeding out, but I think her body had just enough left in it to try and get up.

Air hunger is the worst sensation in the world. And I've had a good deal of unpleasant sensations. If she was on her chest, and had the ability to do anything more than blink, her body would have done anything to ease the pressure on her chest. Because of her odd position, we know she wasn't posed. Because of the mud, we know that likely she was in a different position than she was when she hit the ground. Which means she moved herself. But she didn't let go of the cachous, she didn't straighten her legs, and she never touched her own wound. All very natural things to do. It's possible that she suffered from some paralysis. I think all she did was straighten her spine to tilt her body onto it's side. It would pull her right arm towards her, leave her left where it was, and maybe explain the mud on both sides of her coat.

[curious]

No it was full blown syncope, so I did in fact black out. But because it was circulation related, it didn't last long at all because when horizontal your circulation evens out. So I would stand up, get the head rush, feel dizzy, then black out. When I blacked out, I stiffened, still swaying from the dizziness, would drop like a tree, and then come to a second later. I had a loss of awareness lasting maybe two seconds. It just happened to be an eventful two seconds. It could be argued that the blackout is your body's way of forcing you to lie down. Just as the classical faints from exhaustion, horror, fever, etc. could be argued to be your body's way of forcing you to get some sleep.

But (and here is why my parents might be psychopaths, because they are a doctor and a nurse and therefor knew better) if my parents intervened and kept me from falling, and kept me upright, it lasted longer. For maybe 10 - 20 seconds. And then I would fold like the cinematic faint, because the release of stiffness happened a second or so before becoming fully aware. And that gave me a wicked headache. Though to be fair the three or four times I hit the coffee table on the way down also gave me a wicked headache. Which is why the jury is still out of the sadism of my parents.

I would speculate that if Stride suffered vasosagal syncope, that she stiffened and started to fall. If her killer caught her, keeping her somewhat upright, the syncope would have lasted longer. Maybe long enough to get a throat cut in, if he was goal oriented. If on the other hand he lowered her to the ground, she would have regained consciousness, probably before he cut her. Which doesn't mean she could have escaped or even fought, but she would have brought her hands up. Thus releasing the cachous.

I think he yanked her back towards him with the neckerchief, and then immediately cut her throat while she was still upright. Perhaps still even falling backwards. At which point he either stepped out of the way and let her fall, or just stopped supporting her and she fell. I think it was very fast. I think she probably landed twisted. I'm going to take a stab at explaining this position, but I might suck at it. Essentially fetal position, but with her head on her left arm, right arm just dropped, chest and back curved, like she was trying to touch her forehead to her thighs, with her right shoulder over the line of her left. It's called a three quarters position, essentially because three quarters of your body is facing in a particular direction. And I think that she used the last of her life to roll on her side. Her heart had likely stopped, and she may have not been able to breathe,and was bleeding out, but I think her body had just enough left in it to try and get up.

Air hunger is the worst sensation in the world. And I've had a good deal of unpleasant sensations. If she was on her chest, and had the ability to do anything more than blink, her body would have done anything to ease the pressure on her chest. Because of her odd position, we know she wasn't posed. Because of the mud, we know that likely she was in a different position than she was when she hit the ground. Which means she moved herself. But she didn't let go of the cachous, she didn't straighten her legs, and she never touched her own wound. All very natural things to do. It's possible that she suffered from some paralysis. I think all she did was straighten her spine to tilt her body onto it's side. It would pull her right arm towards her, leave her left where it was, and maybe explain the mud on both sides of her coat.

Hi, Errata,
Thanks for the reply and the thought it produced.

After reading it, I went back to reread the inquest and got distracted about coming back here.

Appreciate your thoughts.

curious

[Errata]

That abrasion is odd though.

It's an inch and a half in diameter. So there's a golf ball sized scrape under her right clavicle. And since the refer to diameters, it's roundish and not longish. She not was wearing anything that would scrape her. And it would take sort of a vigorous rubbing (ie: the appallingly named Indian burn) for a hand or fingers to scrape her with her own clothing. And evidently they seemed of the opinion that it happened during the attack.

So here's two thoughts.

First, the scrape predates the attack, and therefor we don't have to figure it into any possible attack sequence.

Second, she did have something there that scraped her. And her killer took it. And he bodice was unbuttoned not because she was a prostitute, but because after searching her, her killer found the item tucked in her bodice, and undid it to get to it. It also might explain she was found in a position she did not fall in. He didn't pose her, but he pulled her from her stomach to her side to get into her bodice.

What's golf ball sized and worth killing for? A watch wouldn't scrape her. Maybe a brooch. There's nothing to suggest she was a thief. Embezzler maybe, but not a thief. So if this is what happened, she was either holding it for someone, or it was given to her. Perhaps given to her by someone who had no right to give it and figured that out pretty quick.

But if she was robbed, that lets out Jack. And if not Jack, that can change how her killer would react to her just falling over. Goal oriented killers can keep their focus much better than other kinds of killers, especially when things go awry.

[curious]

That abrasion is odd though.

It's an inch and a half in diameter. So there's a golf ball sized scrape under her right clavicle. And since the refer to diameters, it's roundish and not longish. She not was wearing anything that would scrape her. And it would take sort of a vigorous rubbing (ie: the appallingly named Indian burn) for a hand or fingers to scrape her with her own clothing. And evidently they seemed of the opinion that it happened during the attack.

So here's two thoughts.

First, the scrape predates the attack, and therefor we don't have to figure it into any possible attack sequence.

Second, she did have something there that scraped her. And her killer took it. And he bodice was unbuttoned not because she was a prostitute, but because after searching her, her killer found the item tucked in her bodice, and undid it to get to it. It also might explain she was found in a position she did not fall in. He didn't pose her, but he pulled her from her stomach to her side to get into her bodice.

What's golf ball sized and worth killing for? A watch wouldn't scrape her. Maybe a brooch. There's nothing to suggest she was a thief. Embezzler maybe, but not a thief. So if this is what happened, she was either holding it for someone, or it was given to her. Perhaps given to her by someone who had no right to give it and figured that out pretty quick.

But if she was robbed, that lets out Jack. And if not Jack, that can change how her killer would react to her just falling over. Goal oriented killers can keep their focus much better than other kinds of killers, especially when things go awry.

There is so much here.

We both don't think Liz had anything of value herself. What if she left Michael Kidney for another man? The man for whom she was holding a brooch or something of value pinned to the inside of her garment?

Are you thinking along those lines?
curious

[Errata]

There is so much here.

We both don't think Liz had anything of value herself. What if she left Michael Kidney for another man? The man for whom she was holding a brooch or something of value pinned to the inside of her garment?

Are you thinking along those lines?
curious

Yeah, something like that.

Which isn't to say necessarily that a client gave her something he tried to get back. A friend of hers may have asked her to hold it, or she was concealing stolen property for someone. She may have found it. Or someone else did.

It's isn't even necessarily jewelry. The roundness of the abrasion kind of suggests it, but it could have been a small package, a small bag of something, it could even have been a note if it was wrapped in twine or something.

I used to do renaissance festivals, so I'm very familiar with tucking something in a bodice. If it's bulky (like a pack of cigarettes), you store it between the breasts. If it's small, you put in essentially on each breast. It's mostly about not leaving a noticeable bulge or line. But under the clavicle is kind of high for a bodice tuck. On the other hand, I can testify with a certain amount of authority that pendants can and do scratch the hell out of a wide swath of your chest. Especially if you are asleep. but necklaces don't always hang straight. they usually shift to one side or the other. Or if you are trying to conceal it, you tuck the pendant into essentially your bra strap. Which if you move about enough does make an abrasion right where the strap is. And even without a bra, the area right by the armpits is where clothing tends to to tightest, and therefor more secure.

I would say, that if it existed, it was either something she could pin the inside of her bodice, because the abrasion is too high for anything to stay in there on it's own (if she bent over if could fall out that high up). Or is was hanging around her neck. And the scarf being so tight around her throat may have masked the marks a necklace or cord makes on the neck. Now, it was not uncommon for women to have like safety pins on some part of their clothing, just in case. Usually pinned to the inside of a garment, like pinned in a pocket, in the bodice, even the hem of the skirt. No pins we found on her, but when most people take something that has been pinned, they take the pin too. So that's not helpful.

The shape of the abrasion makes a difference, because any kind of lace edging, boning, etc. will abrade skin. But in the case of clothing, it rubs back and forth, so its a line. If it was from her clothes, it should have been a line. Otherwise, I honestly don't know what make that scrape.

[Tom_Wescott]

Just a few things...the 'bruises' on Stride's shoulders were noted as 'finger marks' by the doctors, meaning they resulted from applied pressure as opposed to blunt force trauma. No abrasions on her face. Bruise on chest. The finger marks must have occurred at the time of death, or within minutes before or after death. Based on witness statements, no one was seen squeezing her shoulders after her body was found, so we're left with it occurring at or just before her death. This, in turn, leaves two possibilities:

1) BS Man was responsible. The Star included the very interesting observation (from its interview with Schwartz) that he grabbed Stride 'by the shoulders'. It's one of those little details you can't imagine being made up, so was probably true.
2) Her killer (assuming he was not BS Man) left the finger marks, and this might very well explain how she was rendered unconscious.

The chest bruise may not have had anything to do with her murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

B S

Hello Tom. If Schwartz is telling the truth, then it seems obvious to me that the peri mortem bruising on Liz's shoulders was BS's work.

Cheers.
LC