How Would Jack the Ripper Have Reacted?

[lynn cates]

cachous

Hello (again) Velma.

"Perhaps he just grabbed and got the scarf and she attempted to pull away.

But then, we have the grasp on the cachous that fainting won't explain . . ."

Exactly. Could he have placed them in her hand? Of course, but wasn't he in a hurry, being interrupted?

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Velma. Thanks.

"Would the doctors at the time have known what a heart attack looked like?"

Certainly.

Cheers.
LC

I was just thinking that with all our magic machines today, doctors can actually look into living people and could not have back in 1888.

What would a heart attack have looked like?

Or I should probably go look it up . . . .

[lynn cates]

signs

Hello Velma. An infarction would show tissue death in the area near the infarct.

A thrombosis, however, would reveal a clot.

Cheers.
LC

[Tecs]

But a limp Liz cannot hold the cachous.

If that's not the name of an indie bands psychedelic 3rd album, it should be...


regards,

[Tecs]

Hi, Tecs,
I personally think the fact that Jack cut his victims throats away from him in order to avoid getting bloody himself tells us quite a bit about him, and to me is one of the main reasons I suspect "Jack" as Liz's killer. I'm still undecided about that.

That and the quick work in a crowded location are, to me, indications of Jack.

The cachous tells us something unusual (most likely physical) happened with Liz, and 124 years later we still don't know what it was.

Cadaveric Spasm has been suggested, but I believe the entire body goes into "instant rigor"

Since the doctors were able to move her around just minutes later, Cadaveric Spasm doesn't seem to me to be likely.

Thanks Curious,

This line is very interesting and worth pursuing.

Two examples that spring to mind,

1. Didn't J.F.K.'s body go into some strange sort of spasm when he was shot? People have argued about whether his lifting his arms to his neck was a natural reaction to being shot in the throat or a spasmic reaction that causes the arms to raise in that way.

2. P.C. Thompson who discovered Frances Coles's body was stabbed to death years later. According to the reports, he held on to his attacker's collar so strongly that his fingers had to be prized off post mortem. Was there any comment about the stiffness of the rest of his body? Even if there was, it suggests that in certain modes of death, a hand can be very tightly clenched whilst the rest of the body is not, assuming that Thompson did not go into some kind of immediate rigor mortis.

regards,

[curious]

Hello (again) Velma.

"Perhaps he just grabbed and got the scarf and she attempted to pull away.

But then, we have the grasp on the cachous that fainting won't explain . . ."

Exactly. Could he have placed them in her hand? Of course, but wasn't he in a hurry, being interrupted?

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,
Sorry for the delay, had to stop and feed the birdies.

The being interrupted is just someone's guess as to what was going on that night.

And the killer placing them in her hand would indicate -- to me -- a non-Jack kill.

But we don't really have any explanation for the cachous.

We know that someone? was it Johnston? admitted that he had spilled them, then picked most of them up. Isn't that right.?Going from my memory is dangerous here.

Maybe someone not on record is actually responsible for the cachous.

Any ideas, Lynn?

You're good with questions, but don't often put your ideas forward.

Velma

[Errata]

There is a nerve in the neck, the Vagus nerve, that affects the heart. For anyone who has ever gotten a head rush (or even fainted) from standing up too quickly, that is vasovagal syncope, an interaction between circulatory changes and the Vagus nerve. The "Vulcan Neck Pinch" also operates on this principle.

In rare instances (though it seems to happen not infrequently in baseball) trauma to the neck causes the heart to stop. Maybe 1 in 1000. It's happened with martial artists, baseball players, wrestlers, during surgery... it happens.

Offhand I can't remember the nature of Liz Stride's neck cut, but I think he probably severed the Vagus nerve, or at least nicked it, and stopped her heart. It is even possible that jerking on her neck kerchief stimulated the Vagus nerve, and THAT stopped her heart. It's a lot more likely from the throat cut, but if baseball players can drop dead from taking a ball to the neck, Stride could have died from a sharp jerk on her scarf.

There's a name for this phenomenon, I discussed it in another thread a long time ago. I can't remember it offhand.

a HA! reflex vagal inhibition. That's what it's called.

[curious]

Thanks Curious,

This line is very interesting and worth pursuing.

Two examples that spring to mind,

1. Didn't J.F.K.'s body go into some strange sort of spasm when he was shot? People have argued about whether his lifting his arms to his neck was a natural reaction to being shot in the throat or a spasmic reaction that causes the arms to raise in that way.

2. P.C. Thompson who discovered Frances Coles's body was stabbed to death years later. According to the reports, he held on to his attacker's collar so strongly that his fingers had to be prized off post mortem. Was there any comment about the stiffness of the rest of his body? Even if there was, it suggests that in certain modes of death, a hand can be very tightly clenched whilst the rest of the body is not, assuming that Thompson did not go into some kind of immediate rigor mortis.

regards,

Hi, Tecs,
Thanks for the examples. Very interesting.

Since JFK was shot in the back of the neck -- right? -- could the reaction be because nerves were involved that might produce the involuntary muscle action?

I knew that PC Thompson had been stabbed, but had never heard about his grasp on his killer's collar.

I wonder how much people have control in the final moments of life. Wondering if perhaps Thompson was determined to hang on to his killer, to not let him get away. I suspect most people might try to do that, but especially an officer of the law -- on the other hand, it might be his body's reaction to the trauma and nothing more.

Again, very interesting.

I've gone back and reread Dr. Phillips inquest testimony, and he reported "Roughly estimating it, I should say there was an unusual flow of blood, considering the stature and the nourishment of the body."

I don't know how that ties to anything. Any thoughts?

curious

[curious]

There is a nerve in the neck, the Vagus nerve, that affects the heart. For anyone who has ever gotten a head rush (or even fainted) from standing up too quickly, that is vasovagal syncope, an interaction between circulatory changes and the Vagus nerve. The "Vulcan Neck Pinch" also operates on this principle.

In rare instances (though it seems to happen not infrequently in baseball) trauma to the neck causes the heart to stop. Maybe 1 in 1000. It's happened with martial artists, baseball players, wrestlers, during surgery... it happens.

Offhand I can't remember the nature of Liz Stride's neck cut, but I think he probably severed the Vagus nerve, or at least nicked it, and stopped her heart. It is even possible that jerking on her neck kerchief stimulated the Vagus nerve, and THAT stopped her heart. It's a lot more likely from the throat cut, but if baseball players can drop dead from taking a ball to the neck, Stride could have died from a sharp jerk on her scarf.

There's a name for this phenomenon, I discussed it in another thread a long time ago. I can't remember it offhand.

a HA! reflex vagal inhibition. That's what it's called.

Thanks, Errata,
Now that you mention it, I do recall that discussion.

So, I looked it up and apparently the Vagus nerve is actually in the carotid sheath between the internal carotid artery and the internal jugular vein, so it is entirely possible that nerve was affected.

Now, just another thought --- if the heart stopped, would she have continued to bleed out?

Dr. Phillips went on to remark that there was an unusual flow of blood considering the stature and nourishment of the body . . .

Interesting information.

Thanks, Errata.

curious

[Tecs]

Hi, Tecs,
Thanks for the examples. Very interesting.

Since JFK was shot in the back of the neck -- right? -- could the reaction be because nerves were involved that might produce the involuntary muscle action?

I knew that PC Thompson had been stabbed, but had never heard about his grasp on his killer's collar.

I wonder how much people have control in the final moments of life. Wondering if perhaps Thompson was determined to hang on to his killer, to not let him get away. I suspect most people might try to do that, but especially an officer of the law -- on the other hand, it might be his body's reaction to the trauma and nothing more.

Again, very interesting.

I've gone back and reread Dr. Phillips inquest testimony, and he reported "Roughly estimating it, I should say there was an unusual flow of blood, considering the stature and the nourishment of the body."

I don't know how that ties to anything. Any thoughts?

curious

This might be one of those occasions when what is written in somebody's book is different slightly from what actually happened!

When I wrote before I was talking off the top of my head, but am still convinced that in one of the respectable books on the case it was stated that thompson held on to his Killer's collar so tightly that his hands had to be prized off after death. I've just had a quick look at the newspapers on this site and it appears that that is what almost happened. he certainly had a tight hold, of the coat it appears and it does look as if his hands did need to be prized off by colleagues, but thompson appears to have still been just alive at that point.

I'll check my books when I get home later, there may be an answer there somewhere!

regards,

[Tecs]

Since JFK was shot in the back of the neck -- right?

Don't open that can of worms!!!

There's enough debate on this subject, let alone JFK111

regards,

[lynn cates]

cachous

Hello Velma. Thanks. One of the doctors (Blackwell or Phillips) admitted to spilling them.

I have always regarded the cachous as I would a cigarette or chewing gum. In the pocket, out for a moment when you are relaxing/wishing to relax, back in they go.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

This might be one of those occasions when what is written in somebody's book is different slightly from what actually happened!

When I wrote before I was talking off the top of my head, but am still convinced that in one of the respectable books on the case it was stated that thompson held on to his Killer's collar so tightly that his hands had to be prized off after death. I've just had a quick look at the newspapers on this site and it appears that that is what almost happened. he certainly had a tight hold, of the coat it appears and it does look as if his hands did need to be prized off by colleagues, but thompson appears to have still been just alive at that point.

I'll check my books when I get home later, there may be an answer there somewhere!

regards,

And that is what happens when people write things, or attempt to describe things.

Doing the best we can, there are slight differences. Then someone listening or reading interprets something a completely different way, and off we go!

Appreciate your checking on this!

curious

[curious]

Don't open that can of worms!!!

There's enough debate on this subject, let alone JFK111

regards,

can left unopened!

[curious]

Hello Velma. Thanks. One of the doctors (Blackwell or Phillips) admitted to spilling them.

I have always regarded the cachous as I would a cigarette or chewing gum. In the pocket, out for a moment when you are relaxing/wishing to relax, back in they go.

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,
same here. So, the cachous appear to suggest that BS (if he existed) had left . . .

going off to reread some things. I'm wondering if she had dropped the packet and someone put the cachous back in her hand -- perhaps not the killer -- of course WHY???

BUT NO. Then, they would have been spilled as they did when Johnston moved them . . .

just most peculiar.

The entire thing: the pale lungs and pallor of the face, the unusual amount of blood flow.

What if . . . no. don't think that works.

Well, off to read a bit. Then, since it's a glorious Indian summer day here, think I'll take the puppies for a walk.

Later,

curious