Diemschutz arrival

[lynn cates]

dead

Hello Velma.

"say that the killer grabbed Liz in the dark and was strangling her with her own scarf, when she keeled over in sudden cardiac arrest.

What would the killer have done?"

Possibly left? If she is dead, why bother to cut her throat? Besides, if she were dead, would she have bled much?

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Random?

Now, I am to suppose that everything else is just random and by the same chap?

Hi Lynn,

Who said anything was "just random"?



Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

C D

Hello Colin. I was referring to CD. His dictum involved whatever it took to kill.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Tom,

To respond to some of your points made..

So PC Smith no longer counts? And what about earlier that night? We're discussing Stride's last night, not just the morning of her murder.


The time I gave was 12:35, that was PC Smiths sighting, the last one by someone we can trust.

Actually, James Brown said he was "almost certain' that it WAS Stride he saw. If you know something Brown, the police, and we don't know, please share.

Brown also said he did not see a flower on her dress, and that he saw nothing light in color about either of them, that he wasnt sure if the man wore a hat, and that the man was of average build. That doesnt sound to me like a positive ID and the arrangement that Liz wore was white maidenfern with a red flower in the middle, one which she certainly had on her at 12:45am.

You mean the sequestered witness, Israel Schwartz?

Ive heard lots of people speculate about that but to my knowledge no evidence has been presented to-date to validate those assumptions. Lawende was sequestered, indicating that the City police felt he was a legitimate witness. Some evidence would be required if you intend to have these remarks considered valid. And that still wouldnt matter a hill of beans.

She was found murdered in a dark corner. Come on, get with it. She repeatedly met men in and outside of pubs. She was an alcoholic. She no longer had Kidney's allowance. I shouldn't have to draw you this map to prostitution, so I must conclude you don't WANT her to be a prostitute. You want her to be on a Fenian mission. I'm afraid I can't help you with that.


She was found feet from the street on a property that had ample "dark corners" if one chose to seek them out. She was in a dark spot created behind an open gate. Ive heard you and others make many claims about the character of these women, proclaiming them all working prostitutes. The only women we have evidence, (by their own admission), were soliciting when they die is Polly and Annie, throw in Martha if you so choose. I can say categorically that Ive never suggested Fenians were involved in the murder of Stride, but I have suggested that there is no need at all to even consider a Ripper for the culprit.

I'm afraid YOU'RE mistaken, Mike. There is evidence of interruption, there only lacks proof. In fact, there is only evidence that a murder occurred, there's no proof on occurred. But working from the evidence, we reach the conclusions that make the most sense. And keep in mind that I'm not a devotee of the interruption scenario, I only admit it's one of many possibilities. But why it should be discarded as nearly impossible is beyond me. The evidence does not allow us to discount it any more than it allows us to conclude, to the exclusion of everything else, that Stride's killer was interrupted.


That is one screwed up paragraph. There is no "evidence" that an interruption happened at all...there are opinions one did, but no evidence, there is however proof of that a murder or manslaughter occurred by virtue of the dead woman found and determined not to be a suicide, and when you use the word "evidence" you may want to substitute " what I believe" instead, because based on the physical evidence, I cant believe this needs repeating, THERE ARE NO GROUNDS FOR AN ASSUMPTION OF AN INTERRUPTION in the murder of Liz Stride. There are opinions.....and everyone has one, just like *** *****.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

The ONLY interruption that night was Liz being interrupted while about to have a breath mint.

Cheers Tom

[harry]

I believe it was stated that the bow in the scarf was found off centre on Stride's throat,so we can assume the bow at least was still in place.Which is interesting,given that any excessive force on the ends,such as would be used if pulling Stide,would surely unravel the bow.

[Wickerman]

I believe it was stated that the bow in the scarf was found off centre on Stride's throat,so we can assume the bow at least was still in place.Which is interesting,given that any excessive force on the ends,such as would be used if pulling Stide,would surely unravel the bow.

I had wondered if bow was the correct term, it was pulled tight and to the left.
If you make a true bow as for instance when tying a shoelace, I can't envisage how it can be pulled tighter.
To tighten a bow you have to re-tie it, so perhaps 'bow' was not the correct term.

There are dozens of ways to tie a scarf, my wife suggested this way.



But the above could hardly be described as a handkerchief, which are usually square.

Alternately, Stride may have been wearing a silk headscarf which are square and tie under the jaw when worn over the head, like so..



especially as it had been raining that night.

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

I don't believe it would have been a long scarf, and the knot would have been tied to the side by Stride herself. The knot would have become tighter if the scarf were pulled from the other side, not looser as Harry suggested.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Ok here the same 'bow' was then described as a 'knotted'..

"...I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted,..."

So if the knot was tight the killer pulled it so, as suggested by Blackwell. So, was it tight enough to choke her?

"The Coroner: Was the silk scarf tight enough to prevent her calling out? - I could not say that. "

Shame, he did not elaborate on that answer.

Regards, Jon S.

[harry]

Tom,
You and I are both correct,as can be explained by a knotted tie and a bow tie.Pull the ends of a bow tie and it will unravel,pull the ends of a knotted tie and it will tighten.Another example of the information we are faced with being contradictory.I amm sure there was evidence given of there being a bow.

[lynn cates]

tighten

Hello Harry.

"any excessive force on the ends,such as would be used if pulling Stride,would surely unravel the bow."

That depends on the knot. If a standard slip knot is used, pulling on the end would tighten it.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

illustration

Hello Jon. Well done. Excellent illustration.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

off balance

Hello Jon.

"So, was it tight enough to choke her?"

Perhaps not more than for a moment. But it was enough to take her off balance.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

knotty boy

Hello Harry. If one equates bow with knot, there is no mystery.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Harry. If one equates bow with knot, there is no mystery.

Cheers.
LC

Right Lynn, this information has come via men (witness plus recorder), a woman might have been more precise. The knot of the bow being the point where it was tied, as opposed to the loops & tails?

In trying to picture the assault as described by Blackwell, if the killer pulled her head back with one hand by the knot of the scarf, she is off balance and falling to his left?
He runs the knife across her throat while she stumbled downward, then her body weight is suspended by her scarf, similar to her hanging by the scarf momentarily.

The knife ran so close to the scarf that it frayed the edge of the scarf? Then wouldn't we think the scarf would be sucked into the open wound?
Blackwell doesn't appear to suggest this but I can see this being the case if the cut was so close to the edge of the scarf (per Phillips). The fleshy part of her neck at the point of the cut would just collapse and the scarf would end up inside the wound.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this but, I'm trying to picture just how tight that scarf was.
- If it was not inside the wound then it was not that close, or,
- If it was so close then it was not that tight.

If it was not that tight then it was not tight enough to choke her?

Maybe, or not?
Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

I believe it was stated that the bow in the scarf was found off centre on Stride's throat,so we can assume the bow at least was still in place.Which is interesting,given that any excessive force on the ends,such as would be used if pulling Stide,would surely unravel the bow.

Hi Harry,

I believe the scarf was knotted and twisted to the left when she was found, thats why it didnt come undone...it was knotted rather than tied with a bow. My guess is that most women and men who wore scarves at that time knotted them, as many sailors would have.

I believe the "twist" in the scarf and knot suggests that as the killer had hold of the scarf Elizabeth's position changed, and he retained his grip on the scarf as she fell on her left side.

Still a good question that needs answering....did he cut her as she fell back onto her side, did he cut her while choking her using the scarf, or did he cut her after she was already lying down?

Best regards Harry.