Diemschutz arrival

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

I haven't talked to you in a long time. Hope you are doing well.

As for evidence of an interruption, you are quite right, there is none. That would require Liz on her back with her dress pulled up and a cut to her abdomen but no organs removed. But we also have to ask ourselves could an interruption have occurred without any evidence? Is that possible? Is it a reasonable assumption? I think the answer to that is clearly yes. If her killer was in fact Jack and given the circumstances under which he was operating, is it so unlikely that he might have been scared off prior to Diemschutz arriving? If that happened, what possible evidence would we have of that?

c.d.

Hi cd,

It has been some time, Im good, hope you are as well.

I believe youve struck upon the main point here cd,.. because we have no evidence that something happened it is "unreasonable" to state that such an occurrence was "probable" or "likely" nonetheless. Without any evidence to support a belief it is little more than that, and in this instance the evidence does not indicate we should be considering a scenario where the killer is left unsatisfied or unable to complete his goal.

Your point is valid,.... what if something, anything, had scared him off after the throat cut and before anything else may have happened. How would we know?

We would see some evidence cd. A man seen scurrying away by Louis or Fanny, Liz turned onto her back, Liz looking like she was hastily discarded, not looking as if "gently lain down",... there are many ways of determining what may likely have occurred using only the crime scene evidence.

The evidence here suggests that the killer just let go of her scarf when she lay on her side bleeding out, and he left her there in his own good time, and on his own terms. He was not evidently chased away.

There is as much evidence for speculating he stood there and watched her for a minute or two as there is for suggesting he was interrupted, neither suggestion is warranted based on that criteria.

Cheers cd

[Michael W Richards]

All of these women (with the possible exception of Kelly) had a history of doing menial work from time to time... but not usually between 12 and 6 a.m.

No, we don't know with any certainty why Elizabeth Stride was outside of 40 Berner St. at that hour. But unlike many other uncertainties there are a multitude of contemporaneous clues as to why she was there. The police thought she was soliciting. Dr. Blackwell referenced her 'class' by the way she was dressed. Thomas Bates mentions what she did when she had to; the lady from Tiger Bay, also. She had a record at Thames Magistrate Court for the previous 3 years that included being arrested for soliciting. She was probably the only one of the so-called canonicals to actually have been arrested for soliciting... Not to mention reportedly being seen with several different men in the space of little more than an hour.

Of course, this has been debated ad nauseum over the recent years and I would not be redundant here, except for the fact that some new members may not be aware of certain facts. No one's going to change the minds of agenda driven Ripperologists.

What you are describing above Hunter is a classic Unfortunate profile. Not a prostitutes profile. This woman obviously sought work that she was trained to do and found it, that last day she was "employed". She stated that she had been at work among the Jews, is it so far fetched that she might be standing outside a Jewish mens club after a meeting on some employment premise, relating to the club, a member, the meeting, or the impending High Holidays which were to begin the next day I believe.

If you want to use circumstantial evidence to support the soliciting ideas then you should be aware that the same technique works when assessing other possible answers Hunter.

Circumstantially, I see employment as a possible reason. As do I see potential for a social encounter.

Cheers mate

[lynn cates]

verbal statement

Hello CD. Thanks. Perhaps I am relying too much on verbal statements?

If you have one from Liz or Kate please share and I'll change my stance.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

all the facts

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"I think the relevant point here is that there was a connection to her husband."

Yes, but was it recent? (heh-heh)

"If we had all of the facts regarding other murders at this time, I think that the vast majority of them would have some obvious motive, i.e., robbery, jealousy etc. as opposed to someone just running around Whitechapel sticking a knife in people for no good reason."

Completely agree.

"That is why I believe Liz was a victim of Jack. I don't see a motive in her killing that points to anyone being her killer other than Jack."

But look at your dicta above, "If we had all of the facts. . ." We don't. But if we DID, perhaps we would no longer believe in Jack?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

evidence

Hello (yet again) CD.

"If her killer was in fact Jack and given the circumstances under which he was operating, is it so unlikely that he might have been scared off prior to Diemschutz arriving? If that happened, what possible evidence would we have of that?"

I would say this--that the throat cut be as deep as the others. Then before mutilation began, an interruption would be more feasible.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

link?

Hello Cris.

"She had a record at Thames Magistrate Court for the previous 3 years that included being arrested for soliciting."

I have not seen this one--only the D & D's. Can you kindly point me to a link?

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

There is ample evidence that Liz Stride was employed as a charwoman/maid/nanny after having spent a few years prostituting to support herself while still in Sweden, there is also evidence that she helped run a coffee shop, that she acted as a maid for a relation of a policeman and that she had told close friends she had "been at work among the Jews" recently. She cleaned rooms and was paid for it on Saturday afternoon, no-one knows what happened to the money, but it was enough for a bed if she had chosen to spend it thusly.

I've never suggested that Stride...or any prostitute...didn't earn money many different ways.

Only Israel Schwartz says that Liz was seen talking to a man after 12:35,

So PC Smith no longer counts? And what about earlier that night? We're discussing Stride's last night, not just the morning of her murder.

Brown is almost certainly mistaken as to whom he saw

Actually, James Brown said he was "almost certain' that it WAS Stride he saw. If you know something Brown, the police, and we don't know, please share.

so there is only the Inquest absentee to rest your "solicitation" assumptions upon Tom.

You mean the sequestered witness, Israel Schwartz?

She was seen talking to a few men throughout the evening, and seen slipping away to dark corners with none of them.

She was found murdered in a dark corner. Come on, get with it. She repeatedly met men in and outside of pubs. She was an alcoholic. She no longer had Kidney's allowance. I shouldn't have to draw you this map to prostitution, so I must conclude you don't WANT her to be a prostitute. You want her to be on a Fenian mission. I'm afraid I can't help you with that.

As to the suggestion of an interruption, perhaps you misunderstand, that Diemshutz's story opens the possibility... or that Abberline said thats what he thought, means that an interruption is a valid conjecture, is nonsense. There is no physical evidence within the known realm that suggests or intimates that an interruption happened. None. It doesnt matter who thought it out loud, its unsupported by all the physical evidence. She was killed. Period.

I'm afraid YOU'RE mistaken, Mike. There is evidence of interruption, there only lacks proof. In fact, there is only evidence that a murder occurred, there's no proof on occurred. But working from the evidence, we reach the conclusions that make the most sense. And keep in mind that I'm not a devotee of the interruption scenario, I only admit it's one of many possibilities. But why it should be discarded as nearly impossible is beyond me. The evidence does not allow us to discount it any more than it allows us to conclude, to the exclusion of everything else, that Stride's killer was interrupted.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hello (yet again) CD.

"If her killer was in fact Jack and given the circumstances under which he was operating, is it so unlikely that he might have been scared off prior to Diemschutz arriving? If that happened, what possible evidence would we have of that?"

I would say this--that the throat cut be as deep as the others. Then before mutilation began, an interruption would be more feasible.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

If Jack were her killer, do you think that he gave any thought whatsoever as to the deepness of the cut? Her killer did what was needed to kill her.

Does Tiger Woods hit his drives the exact same way every time?

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Ceeds, great post, and point well made, although I'm afraid it will fall on deaf ears. Common sense just can't compete with exciting intrigue and Fenian conspiracies!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Bridewell]

And keep in mind that I'm not a devotee of the interruption scenario, I only admit it's one of many possibilities. But why it should be discarded as nearly impossible is beyond me. The evidence does not allow us to discount it any more than it allows us to conclude, to the exclusion of everything else, that Stride's killer was interrupted.

Hi Tom,

That seems to me to be a pretty balanced summation.

Just as an aside, we often read how there was "no mutilation" in the case of Stride but of course, if there was an interruption we cannot rule out the possibility that such mutilation was intended.

Regards, Bridewell

[curious]

The evidence here suggests that the killer just let go of her scarf when she lay on her side bleeding out, and he left her there in his own good time, and on his own terms. He was not evidently chased away.

There is as much evidence for speculating he stood there and watched her for a minute or two as there is for suggesting he was interrupted, neither suggestion is warranted based on that criteria.

Cheers cd

Hi, Michael, all;

Have we ever considered how a killer might react if Liz had just suddenly dropped dead in terror when he grabbed her?

We have been told:

A. she was one of the women Dr. B . . . was speaking too and she was afraid

B. that she was extremely pale, more pale than when she had been seen earlier that night

C. her forefinger and thumb grasped the cachous in a way that is difficult to explain.

So, my question is: say that the killer grabbed Liz in the dark and was strangling her with her own scarf, when she keeled over in sudden cardiac arrest.

What would the killer have done? Annie struggled and pulled at a ligature. There is no sign of that with Liz.

Was Liz so terrified she just dropped dead and spooked her killer?

curious

[Jon Guy]

Hi Curious

Possibly, but Dr Phillips examined her heart:

The heart was small; left ventricle firmly contracted, right less so. Right ventricle full of dark clot; left absolutely empty.

To me, it sounds like she could have a heart problem, only cos I know nowt about these things. But Dr Phillips went on to conclude that:

The Coroner: What was the cause of death? - Undoubtedly the loss of blood from the left carotid artery and the division of the windpipe.

[curious]

Hi Curious

Possibly, but Dr Phillips examined her heart:

The heart was small; left ventricle firmly contracted, right less so. Right ventricle full of dark clot; left absolutely empty.

To me, it sounds like she could have a heart problem, only cos I know nowt about these things. But Dr Phillips went on to conclude that:

The Coroner: What was the cause of death? - Undoubtedly the loss of blood from the left carotid artery and the division of the windpipe.

ok, let's say she just dropped like a dead weight in his arms. Even with the sudden cardiac arrest, I think from what little I read she would still like 2-3 minutes.

I'm wondering if the killer enjoyed watching the terror in his victims' eyes, the begging?

And denied that, either he left in disgust as his game was ruined, or somehow, going off script like that startled him and he just left.

sorry, I've got to run, meeting someone. Should not have started something I didn't have time to discuss.

Thans, Jon.

[lynn cates]

script

Hello CD. Thanks.

"If Jack were her killer, do you think that he gave any thought whatsoever as to the deepness of the cut? Her killer did what was needed to kill her."

Very well. But why the stark similarity in Polly and Annie? Same depth, same twin cuts. Looks like the assailant read from a script. Now, I am to suppose that everything else is just random and by the same chap?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

intention

Hello Colin.

"if there was an interruption we cannot rule out the possibility that such mutilation was intended."

Indeed. And, as long as we are discussing intentions, we cannot rule out cannibalism and necrophilia. Sure, no evidence, but both may have been intended.

Cheers.
LC