Diemschutz arrival

[miakaal4]

The Casebook notes on Stride, discuss the idea that upon the arrival of Diemschutz, the Ripper took fright and hid, until the startled man left to get help, and then made off into the night. This is all very plausible and I do not doubt that is what happened. My question here is, would have someone in the middle of an uncontrolled and frenzied attack, been able to check themselves, refrain from attacking whoever disturbed them, (as pehaps a mad dog would) and leave? Does this not in fact point to a controlled mind who's determination not to be caught out weighs continuing his homicidal careering?
I feel his thought processes and methods of not being caught could say much about who he was.

[lynn cates]

frenzy

Hello Miakaal. I wonder why you consider the attack frenzied? The throat cut seems less deep that Polly and Annie's, or even Kate's.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

I think the killer, probably Kidney, was gone well before Diemschitz reached the entrance to Dutfield's Yard.

Assuming that the attack was an act of anger/rage/passion, he slit her throat and left her. No need for having to allow time for mutilations that were never in prospect. He is probably the man Sugden found a reference to, sitting on a step in a nearby lstreet.

I have no idea whether there was space or opportunity for anyone to conceal themselves in the shadows/gloom near the gates, or elsewhere in the yard for that matter. But I regard the whole area as too public for the "Jack" who killed Nichols and Chapman. It also over-complicates the scenario IMHO.

The traditional approach - that Stride was a "Ripper" victim puts (pun intended) the cart before the horse. Rather ask - if we were detectives coming across the scene what would we infer?

Would we infer someone hiding, someone (never seen) slipping away?

Keep an open mind on this one is my advice.

Phil H

[miakaal4]

Well Lynn I was sopposing that it was a JtR attack. Given that there are strong suspects of being Jack, who were considered violently insane, I was wondering if this control, hiding, not striking out, would be possible for those people.
Of cousr if what Phil say's is correct then the idea is null and void.

[Phil H]

miakaal

Over many years I have thought about the "double-event" - then 10 years or more ago a couple of books introduced me to the idea that maybe not all the murders were by "Jack" and that Kidney was a realistic suspect in the death of Liz Stride. That freed up my thinking.

I began to see that Berners St coulod be perceived as outside "Jacks'" usual territory (on the "wrong" side of Whitechapel Road); and that a separate killer for stride freed up the killer of eddowes to stalk and kill her without the idea of a frantic search for a second victim. (That never struck me as "true".)

Kidney killing Stride does not fit too badly with Schwartz's testimony - the second man could possibly be Stride's "date" for the night. (I must say, however, that I remain highly sceptical of what Schwartz is alleged to have said - he spoke in a foreign language, there may have been misunderstandings in translation and the texts of the police and press differ significantly.)

But such changes of perspective do free us up to look again at the stride killing - meaning that Diemschitz may well have stumbled across the body sometime after Kidney had left the scene.

But I admit all this is speculative, hardly accepted by anyone and strongly resisted by the traditionalist brigade. But I urge you to keep as open a mind as possible on all the murders. It opens up a fresh range of options.

Phil H

[DVV]

miakaal
Over many years I have thought about the "double-event" - then 10 years or more ago a couple of books introduced me to the idea that maybe not all the murders were by "Jack" and that Kidney was a realistic suspect in the death of Liz Stride. That freed up my thinking.
I began to see that Berners St coulod be perceived as outside "Jacks'" usual territory (on the "wrong" side of Whitechapel Road); and that a separate killer for stride freed up the killer of eddowes to stalk and kill her without the idea of a frantic search for a second victim. (That never struck me as "true".)
Kidney killing Stride does not fit too badly with Schwartz's testimony - the second man could possibly be Stride's "date" for the night. (I must say, however, that I remain highly sceptical of what Schwartz is alleged to have said - he spoke in a foreign language, there may have been misunderstandings in translation and the texts of the police and press differ significantly.)

But such changes of perspective do free us up to look again at the stride killing - meaning that Diemschitz may well have stumbled across the body sometime after Kidney had left the scene.

But I admit all this is speculative, hardly accepted by anyone and strongly resisted by the traditionalist brigade. But I urge you to keep as open a mind as possible on all the murders. It opens up a fresh range of options.

Phil H

Phil, I don't know if keeping Stride into the frame is a hallmark of traditionalism (almost a swearword in our world), but I have an idea that her decanonization could well be nothing but mere iddle deconstruction.
Not sure what you mean by "realistic suspect". Can it be coupled with "unlikely" ? - for instance : "Kidney is a realistic but unlikely suspect" ?

[Phil H]

I think Kidney is a highly tenable suspect. But I have no proof.

I see more likelihood in that possibility than in JtR being responsible.

Phil H

[Supe]

Phil,

I think Kidney is a highly tenable suspect.

Tom Wescott rather destroyed that idea in Casebook Examiner No. 1 (April 2010).

Don.

[Phil H]

I must read it.

Phil H

[Tom_Wescott]

It's nice to see my work mentioned, even if it is by my ever-plugging editor. Thanks, Don.

And Phil, let me know what you think of it after you read it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Barnaby]

To the original question, although we see this sort of thing in the movies, have there actually been instances where a serial killer - let's say of women - gets caught in the act by a man and then proceeds to attack the man? My gut feeling is that they would try to flee and strike only if necessary to do so.

[Fisherman]

There are examples of serial killers who have attacked couples with the aim to get to the woman. But then they have known from the outset that an obstacle in form of a man had to be overcome. I know of no example where a serialist have been surprised by am man, but I do know of one example where a woman came upon a scene where a serial killer had already attacked a woman. In that case (David Carpenter, the Trailside killer), the second woman was also overpowered by the killer, who raped her and shot her to death.

The best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

Yes it is rare, to the point of never happening, for an attacker of women to turn on an able bodied man.
South of Whitechapel Road need not of course be outside a potential 'Ripper's' territory.

[miakaal4]

What an incredible tale the JtR crimes are. You couldn't make it up! The one time someone is there possibly seeing the killer, and he cannot speak English!
The police seemed pretty certain that this was another JtR murder. It seems to me, that it is more likely than Tabram or Smith.

[kensei]

I seem to recall that BTK- Dennis Rader- was surprised in the act of attacking one of his female victims by a man and struggled with him and wounded him. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

On Liz Stride, I happen to be a traditionalist who counts her as a Ripper victim. I don't think Pipeman was an accomplice, I think he was just another innocent bystander who was fleeing in Diemshutz's direction and Dieumschutz only thought he was chasing him. I think Diemschutz's description of Liz's attacker is similar enough in a very general way (dark overcoat, peaked or deerstalker cap) to be describing the same outfit also described by witnesses to the prior moments in the Chapman and Eddowes murders, and ok, so Diemschutz didn't speak English. Is that so big a problem? With the large Jewish population in the East End, wouldn't the police have been sure to have reliable translators on hand?