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Elizabeth Stride/Astrakhan Man: Something in Common?

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  • Elizabeth Stride/Astrakhan Man: Something in Common?

    I believe that Schwartz simply witnessed a street hassle and that her killer came along after the B.S. man left the scene. A number of posters disagree arguing that the odds of Stride being attacked a second time in so short a time span are just too great. But these same posters seem to have no problem arguing that if Astrakhan Man was real that he most certainly would have been assaulted and robbed dressed like he was.

    So let's assume for the sake of argument that Astrakhan Man was real. (This is for the sake of argument remember so no need to argue against it). And let's say that someone tried to rob him but he was able to fight them off. What if a few minutes later he encountered another individual who had the idea of robbing him? Would we be shocked by that or would the consensus thinking be well that is not surprising seeing as how he was dressed and he was out by himself late at night in a bad area?

    So if someone is not shocked by a second assault on Astrakhan Man how does that differ from the circumstances that Stride found herself in. Astrakhan Man's circumstances would not have changed after an initial assault. He would still be well dressed. He would still be by himself. It would still be late at night. He would still be in a bad area. Nothing at all changed.

    The same for Stride. After an initial assault by the B.S. man she didn't suddenly find herself standing in front of a church on Sunday afternoon surrounded by people. Her circumstances remained the same.

    So how do Stride and Astrakhan Man differ in these respects if at all?

    And I know that trying to direct argument on these boards is like trying to herd cats but let's try not to argue that Schwartz lied or that Hutchinson made up the character of Astrakhan Man. We are simply making assumptions for the sake of argument.

    c.d.

  • #2
    Their situations are slightly different though to my mind. If we're making the "sake of argument" assumption that Astrakhan Man existed then it is clear, from Hutchinson's account, that he was in a known vice area and on the hunt for the services of a prostitute. If he was robbed he would hardly want to draw attention to the circumstances and would presumably have to continue on his way with the risk, of which you speak, of a second attack. Stride was on home turf and close to premises (the IWMEC) where we can assume that she knew at least some of the occupants. In the event of an assault which resulted in relatively minor injury, why would she not seek the readily available assistance nearby?
    "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

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    • #3
      For arguments sake, Liz was smartly dressed as was Astrakhan Man so both might have been more likely to be targets for robbery so in that sense I'd agree it wouldn't be totally shocking if Astrakhan was in the next days paper reporting a double mugging. But if he'd been found with his throat cut and nothing stolen?
      No, I'd have to plump for saying that if BS man was as depicted, then a second, unrelated and senselessly violent murder minutes later probably seems beyond reason. Possible, yes. Not likely though.
      Them's the vagaries.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
        Their situations are slightly different though to my mind. If we're making the "sake of argument" assumption that Astrakhan Man existed then it is clear, from Hutchinson's account, that he was in a known vice area and on the hunt for the services of a prostitute. If he was robbed he would hardly want to draw attention to the circumstances and would presumably have to continue on his way with the risk, of which you speak, of a second attack. Stride was on home turf and close to premises (the IWMEC) where we can assume that she knew at least some of the occupants. In the event of an assault which resulted in relatively minor injury, why would she not seek the readily available assistance nearby?
        The last sentence is answered by the obvious there was no attack prior to the one that killed her. And the answer to the first line of questioning is there was no astrakhan man. I know cd likes imaging the improbable but even for the sake or argument this isn't really anything but imaginary exploration.
        Michael Richards

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

          The last sentence is answered by the obvious there was no attack prior to the one that killed her. And the answer to the first line of questioning is there was no astrakhan man. I know cd likes imaging the improbable but even for the sake or argument this isn't really anything but imaginary exploration.
          Hello Michael,

          Like I clearly stated -- "for the sake of argument." This enables us to have a discussion.

          Like herding cats. Sigh.

          c.d.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by c.d. View Post
            I believe that Schwartz simply witnessed a street hassle and that her killer came along after the B.S. man left the scene. A number of posters disagree arguing that the odds of Stride being attacked a second time in so short a time span are just too great. But these same posters seem to have no problem arguing that if Astrakhan Man was real that he most certainly would have been assaulted and robbed dressed like he was.

            So let's assume for the sake of argument that Astrakhan Man was real. (This is for the sake of argument remember so no need to argue against it). And let's say that someone tried to rob him but he was able to fight them off. What if a few minutes later he encountered another individual who had the idea of robbing him? Would we be shocked by that or would the consensus thinking be well that is not surprising seeing as how he was dressed and he was out by himself late at night in a bad area?

            So if someone is not shocked by a second assault on Astrakhan Man how does that differ from the circumstances that Stride found herself in. Astrakhan Man's circumstances would not have changed after an initial assault. He would still be well dressed. He would still be by himself. It would still be late at night. He would still be in a bad area. Nothing at all changed.

            The same for Stride. After an initial assault by the B.S. man she didn't suddenly find herself standing in front of a church on Sunday afternoon surrounded by people. Her circumstances remained the same.

            So how do Stride and Astrakhan Man differ in these respects if at all?

            And I know that trying to direct argument on these boards is like trying to herd cats but let's try not to argue that Schwartz lied or that Hutchinson made up the character of Astrakhan Man. We are simply making assumptions for the sake of argument.

            c.d.
            hi cd
            IMHO both would be highly unlikely.
            "Is all that we see or seem
            but a dream within a dream?"

            -Edgar Allan Poe


            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

            -Frederick G. Abberline

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            • #7
              Thanks for your response, Abby.

              c.d.

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