Who Died in Dutfield's Yard?

[Kattrup]

The "facts" seem to cross pollinate both stories, from those who knew Elizabeth Stride...the one we have identified as Elizabeth Gustavsdotter from Goteborg, to Mary Malcolm and her sisters history. Both have the policeman connections in the past, both have the Poplar backgrounds.

do they? MM’s sister had three husbands, none of whom was police, as far as I know (wine merchant, seaman/Royal Navy, bricklayer) and she resided in places like Bath, Peckham, Tottenham. “ I never lived in Commercial road nor kept a coffee house at Poplar” she said.

What has happened is rather that MM used garbled details from Stride’s life when describing her sister. That is why so many details seem similar. The coroner, in summing up, mentions a lot of details which many seem to accept as true. But it is important to note that he qualifies the list “If her evidence was correct, there were points of resemblance between the deceased and Elizabeth Watts which almost reminded one of the Comedy of Errors.” (my bold).

why would and how could MM know what she did? we don’t know for sure and until further sources surface, we cannot know.
She was a ghoulish attention seeker or she was mentally ill could be the why, the how could be from talking to people, either before or during the inquest, or perhaps details of Stride’s life were mentioned by the press.
Another theory is that Stride was scamming MM, posing as MM’s sister in order to receive alms. Against that speaks Stride’s accent, which according to Lane and Ollsen was noticeable, according to Tanner however she spoke English like an Englishwoman. A scam like that would explain the coincidence of Liz MM’s “sister” asking for help for lodging and Stride going to the lodging house same evening. So the person MM though was her sister was actually Stride, which explains why her description of the sister sounds like Stride.
Interesting theory, at least it has a lot more going for it than Simon Wood’s odd theory of...something quite uncertain involving witnesses referencing different bodies.

I wondered whether "Long Liz" was ever used to identify the woman we believe is Elizabeth Gustavsdotter.

No need to wonder, as the witnesses speak it plainly: “She was known by the nick-name of "Long Liz." and “Did you recognise it? - Yes, as the body of Long Liz”

[mpriestnall]

Hi, NBFN,

I couldn't possibly say.

However, it strikes me that something odd took place in Dutfield's Yard, something that had nothing whatsoever to do with the "Ripper" murders.

But we knew that already.

Regards,

Simon

It's my belief that JTR was arrested post double event. Reading Bruce Robinson's take on the Packer business is that the timings of selling the grapes were adjusted by Swanson to devalue him as witness and it was SY who hired the two private detectives not the Vigilante committee.

Any funny business with the Stride murder and the double event revolves around the top met boys discovering JTR's identity following his arrest at this time and deciding to protect him from this point onwards.

Both Packer and Hutchinson are reported in the press to have been ignored initially by the police. Coincidence?

Martyn

[Joshua Rogan]

Elizabeth Tanner: I recognise the features as those of a woman who has lodged at 32 off and on for the last six years, and who was known as "Long Liz." I do not know her right name. She used to tell me that she was a Swedish woman......
The deceased was the only one of the name of "Long Liz" who has ever stopped at my lodging-house

Catherine Lane: I have seen the body in the mortuary and recognise it as "Long Liz," who sometimes came to the lodging house. I have known her for 6 or 7 months. I spoke to her on Thursday last, when she said she had had a few words with the man she was living with, and had left him....
I have heard her say that she was a Swede, and that at one time she lived in Devonshire-street.

Charles Preston: I identified the deceased as "Long Liz" on Sunday evening. I am quite sure it is "Long Liz," who lodged at my present address.....
She has told me that she was a Swede, and came to England in a foreign gentleman's service

[mpriestnall]

Hi All,

Here is Elizabeth Stride. Let's see if she fits into the accepted story.

Name: Elizabeth Sarah Jane Stride

Sex: F

Birth: ABT 1832, Minster in Sheppey, Kent

Death: UNKNOWN

Father: Thomas Stride b: ABT 1796
Mother: Eleanor Beauchamp b: ABT 1800

Grandfather: James Stride b: 1759

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– ––––– –––––––––––

Name: John Thomas Stride

Sex: M

Birth: 8 FEB 1827 in Sheerness, Kent

Death: 24 OCT 1884 in The Sick Asylum, Poplar, Bromley, Middlesex, London

Census: 1861 Minster in Sheppey, Kent

Census: 1871 178 High Street, Poplar, London

Occupation: 1861 joiner

Occupation: 1871 Carpenter

Father: William Stride b: 1784
Mother: Eleanor Elizabeth Monk b: 1794

Grandfather: James Stride b: 1759

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– ––––– –––––––––––

Thomas and William Stride were brothers.

This makes John and Elizabeth Stride first cousins. Cousin marriage was a common practice among pre-industrial propertiedclasses, and usually arranged by the families for economic reasons. Itcontinued as a marriage pattern among middle-class Victorians until the late 19th Century.

At Elizabeth Stride's inquest Mary Malcolm, Michael Kidney and Charles Preston averaged her age at 36 [b. circa 1852]. But Sven Olssen, clerk at the Swedish Church, London, said Stride was 45 years of age—born Elisabeth Gustafsdotter, 27th November 1843, in Torslanda parish, north of Gothenburg, Sweden. Modern research has discovered that Elisabeth Gustafsdotter's father was Gustaf Ericsson and her mother Beatta Carlsdotter.

On 10th July 1866 Elisabeth Gustafsdotter [now aged 22] was registered at the Swedish Church, Prince's Square, St George-in-the-East, as an unmarried woman.

On 7th March 1869 Elizabeth [now aged 25] married John Thomas Stride [now aged 42].

She was described on the marriage certificate as Elizabeth Gustifson, spinster, daughter of Frederick Augustus Gustifson, labourer.

John Stride was living at 21 Munster Street, Regent's Park, London, and Elizabeth at 67 Gower Street, London.

The 1871 Census lists John Stride, Carpenter, 178 Poplar High Street.

In December 1881 Elizabeth would have been aged 38.

Or possibly around 48—the age on her admission to the Whitechapel Infirmary in December of 1881—



By 1888, Elizabeth Stride [cousin] would have been around 55 years of age, but at her inquest Malcolm, Kidney and Preston averaged her age at 36; and the March/April 1881 Census tells us a different story—



She was now 34 years of age, born Stockholm, making her aged 41 in 1888.

But, more importantly, if Elizabeth Stride was Elisabeth Gustafsdotter why would she give her birthplace as Stockholm, almost 300 miles from Gothenburg. Also, why did she give her father's name [Gustaf Ericsson] as Frederick Augustus?

Perhaps in honour of John Stride's younger brother who had died eleven years earlier—

Name: Frederick Augustus Stride

Sex: M

Birth: 8 NOV 1829 in Sheerness, Kent

Death: OCT 1858 in Sheerness, Kent

Christening: 8 FEB 1837 Bible Christian, Sheerness Circuit, Kent C068621

Burial: 31 OCT 1858 Sheerness Cemetery, Halfway Rd, Sheerness, Kent.

So who was it who died in Dutfield’s Yard?

Simon

Simon,

1. Are you suggesting Elizabeth Sarah Jane Stride is the Dutfield yard victim? If so, the obvious thing to do is trace ESJS through the gen records. Census BMD etc, no?

2. This is a very intriguing idea. If I remember correctly, I believe you have hinted at this before?

Martyn

[Trevor Marriott]

The "facts" seem to cross pollinate both stories, from those who knew Elizabeth Stride...the one we have identified as Elizabeth Gustavsdotter from Goteborg, to Mary Malcolm and her sisters history. Both have the policeman connections in the past, both have the Poplar backgrounds. I wondered whether "Long Liz" was ever used to identify the woman we believe is Elizabeth Gustavsdotter.

It might be worth reading the entry for stride which is here on casebook under the victims section

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Michael W Richards]

Curious that Mrs Malcolm says her Liz unexpectedly visited her at a quarter to seven on the Thursday before she died to ask for lodging money, and Swedish Liz appeared at around ten o'clock that same night at a lodging house.

The "facts" seem to cross pollinate both stories, from those who knew Elizabeth Stride...the one we have identified as Elizabeth Gustavsdotter from Goteborg, to Mary Malcolm and her sisters history. Both have the policeman connections in the past, both have the Poplar backgrounds. I wondered whether "Long Liz" was ever used to identify the woman we believe is Elizabeth Gustavsdotter.

[Joshua Rogan]

Curious that Mrs Malcolm says her Liz unexpectedly visited her at a quarter to seven on the Thursday before she died to ask for lodging money, and Swedish Liz appeared at around ten o'clock that same night at a lodging house.

[Michael W Richards]

This is interesting. John Stride had been dead for several years, hadn't he?
I think she is referring to what Kidney said about living with Liz for three years, and presuming he is Stride, who DI Reid asked her about.

Im unsure of what the etiquette was in those days when discussing a male female couple, perhaps the presumption was always a shared surname for the sake of propriety? Which makes me think again about Kate too.

My friend Simon has a way of subtle hints rather than blunt trauma so Im not sure what the endgame he has in mind here is, but a misidentification of a victim would be a really big deal. With what Simon has provided previously on Watts,... forget the series for a minute, this murder alone could be worthy of a screenplay.

I wonder if there is some documentation on how tall Watts was, Im curious about why the "Long Liz" attribution to Watts. Stride was 5'5", not someone who one would normally think of as long legged or tall. I also wonder how Kidney arrived at the conclusion that the 2 women were very similar. One could only do that if 2 had been seen. This is troublesome because Simon says....this isn't about multiple bodies being mistaken for each other. So its got to be about Watts being mistaken for Stride. By a "relative", who may in this case be a presumed spouse...for civility sake, this was after all still the Victorian era and cohabitating might have not been spoken about outside marriage. The age differences too. Or about the Stride we believe was from the west coast city of Goteborg, not the south east Stockholm, is not the woman in this story.

[Joshua Rogan]

She said "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=13px]I have heard what the man Stride has said, but I think he is mistaken"

This is interesting. John Stride had been dead for several years, hadn't he?
I think she is referring to what Kidney said about living with Liz for three years, and presuming he is Stride, who DI Reid asked her about.

[Michael W Richards]

There is no plausible case for this to have been a Jack the Ripper murder case other than by its timing and by using a broad range of assumptions, so what went on in the passageway to Dutfields Yard was definitely odd anyway. Simons point about Kidney/Malcom meeting at some point after his ID and before her testimony is odd as well. Perhaps they met while in a room waiting to make their statements. Why would this Inquest proceed without having properly ID'd the victim first...if this is the case here? Why state a relative ID'd her....Kidney is no relative, and I don't know of anyone in London who was a branch in her family tree. Mary was a relative to her sister. What about the fact he says she was much like Elizabeth..."the deceased"...but certainly not the same age. Mary had "no doubt" she was ID'ing her sister..and Simon earlier alluded to Ms Watts having some legal reasons to disappear, could Mary be helping that cause? Just thinking out loud.

She said "I have heard what the man Stride has said, but I think he is mistaken". Here is another line "Coroner: You are quite confident now about the identity? - Malcolm: I have not a shadow of doubt." The more I re-read her testimony the more compelling it becomes. I always have been annoyed at this witness, I couldn't understand why she would be given precious time here if Liz Stride had already been ID'd by several people. But perhaps the "relative" that gave the ID and then recanted or was shown to be incorrect was Kidney. Mary Malcolm to me reads more believable each time I review the material.

[Kattrup]

Hi Kattrup,

What you personally think or don't think about the police running a dating service is neither here nor there.

That's probably true but it still leaves the question of whether the police commonly introduced witnesses to one another? Do you know of any cases where it happened?

Michael can tell you himself whether or not he has been mislead. He doesn't need your help.

I wasn't helping him, I was helping you

My statement which you kindly emboldened simply means they were not referencing the same body.

I see. In that case, which body was Tanner referencing and which body was Philips referencing?

Regarding the murder of Elizabeth Stride, what other options did the police explore during the following 24 hours? By Monday morning she had become the first act in a double event.

That was hardly the fault of the police since news of the murders spread fast

[Simon Wood]

Hi Kattrup,

What you personally think or don't think about the police running a dating service is neither here nor there.

Michael can tell you himself whether or not he has been mislead. He doesn't need your help.

My statement which you kindly emboldened simply means they were not referencing the same body.

Regarding the murder of Elizabeth Stride, what other options did the police explore during the following 24 hours? By Monday morning she had become the first act in a double event.

Regards,

Simon

[Kattrup]

I find it hard to believe Malcolm and Kidney didn't exchange words.

I also find it hard to believe that a police officer didn't have the wit to introduce them—Malcolm as the victim's sister and Kidney as the victim's three-year lover/common law husband. They would have had plenty to discuss, not least that they were identifying the victim as two different people.

Nice to hear that you concede it's just a belief. Unfortunately your choice of words and presenting it as fact has already mislead Michael Richards. Why would a police officer introduce them, did the police run a dating service? Was it common for police to introduce witnesses with differing statements to one another? I personally don't think so.

I don't believe there were two bodies present in the mortuary. That's your construct.

Ok, it's just that you wrote:

Elizabeth Tanner identified a body at the mortuary which had a mouth defect/injury.

Doctor Phillips examined a body at the mortuary which had no mouth defect/injury.

Clearly they were not looking at the same body.

I have bolded your statement that clearly states that two bodies were involved. But it seems you meant something else? How else is your statement to be understood?

How do we know there was something odd going on in Dutfield's Yard?

Because anyone who believes Elizabeth Stride's murder had anything to do with the freshly-minted "Jack the Ripper" is doomed to a pursue a fool's errand.

Ah, again presenting a mere belief with no empirical basis as fact. I understand your theory but is there any evidence that something odd was going on in Duffield's yard, as you stated we already knew (by evidence I mean something other than your belief, i. e. a contemporary source)

Why did the police, on the basis of no evidence whatsoever—not a jot, not a skerrick—turn cartwheels to pin Stride's murder on the fictional Jack the Ripper.

Maybe they didn't realize that he was fictional? I'm also not sure we agree they pinned it on Jack the Ripper, as I recall they examined other options.

Mutilandum interruptus?

Shouldn't that be mutilatio interrupta?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Kattrup,

I find it hard to believe Malcolm and Kidney didn't exchange words.

I also find it hard to believe that a police officer didn't have the wit to introduce them—Malcolm as the victim's sister and Kidney as the victim's three-year lover/common law husband. They would have had plenty to discuss, not least that they were identifying the victim as two different people.

I don't believe there were two bodies present in the mortuary. That's your construct.

How do we know there was something odd going on in Dutfield's Yard?

Because anyone who believes Elizabeth Stride's murder had anything to do with the freshly-minted "Jack the Ripper" is doomed to a pursue a fool's errand.

Why did the police, on the basis of no evidence whatsoever—not a jot, not a skerrick—turn cartwheels to pin Stride's murder on the fictional Jack the Ripper.

Mutilandum interruptus?

Pshaw!

Regards,

Simon

[Kattrup]

I do not know whether they met at the mortuary or Leman Street police station

But you definitely believe they met, that is, they exchanged words face to face?