Who Died in Dutfield's Yard?

[AlanG]

This is a really fascinating post to follow, I have long been uneasy with the Stride case.
Thank you very much!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

[MA1002] Mrs. Ann Mill, the bed-maker at the lodging-house, stated that she had known the deceased for some years as "Long Liz," though until now she was never acquainted with her real name. Mrs. Stride came to the house after a long absence on Tuesday night, and she last saw her on Saturday evening, when she went out about seven. On that particular day whitewashers were in the house, and in the course of the morning she had assisted her (Mrs. Mill) by cleaning two of the rooms where the workmen had been. The deceased at the time told her she wished she had known it before, as she would have given further help. Mrs. Mill further mentioned that "Long Liz" had told her more than once that she was over 50 years of age. Finally, the old lady, who is verging on 80 years of age, said, "A better-hearted, better-natured, cleaner woman never lived, God bless her soul. Though a poor unfortunate, she worked when she could get it."

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don't think I've said that she lied - but let's keep in mind that she did identify the victim as her sister, who then turned up alive and (somewhat) well. So she's definitely untrustworthy. As she says: "She could not answer all the questions put by the coroner because she was so upset, her memory failed her, but they had come into her mind since - she had reasons for not wishing to answer others." Sounds rather scam-like, "ooh I couldn't think of good answers yesterday but now I have!" She then proceeds to tell a story of how her sister was stabbed by her second husband who then flees to NZ, shipwrecking on the way.

So Malcolm may have been confused, mentally ill or deceived. She may also have lied - and for what? To gain attention, to attempt some scam of sympathy, perhaps, or in order to get money for paper interviews.
Perhaps she told the truth as best she knew it, but she got confused about what she'd heard about Stride from someone.

How do we know Stride was the victim? Because she was identified be several people who know her personally over a long period of time.

If Mary Malcolm lied, for any of the plausible reasons you offer, then it would have been odd for her to not 'identify' her sister, on her first visit to the mortuary.
Having a look on three separate occasions obviously cast significant doubt on her identification.

So moving to your next hypothesis - from what someone had she heard about Stride?

Someone in the Flower & Dean lodging house, perhaps? Seems unlikely.

Someone at work, including possibly at the Berner street club? She would be too busy to tell her life story.

Michael Kidney? I can't think of a motive for him doing this.

I can think of another possibility; whoever she had dinner with, on the last night of her life.

Now who might that have been?

[Kattrup]

Flip of a coin on the last name (and one could be an error), and same first name.

This should be enough extra evidence to suggest we should be talking 'Annie Morris'...

The Identification of Liz Stride:At a late hour last night...A female known as "One-armed Liz"...is said to have accompanied Sergeant Thick to St. George's Mortuary, and recognised the body as that of Annie Morris.



So you want to burn information?

Kidney tells us there was a relationship with a policeman, which apparently continued even after the relationship with J.T. Stride began.

Stride also seems to have been known as Annie Morris, so it is not random to suppose that this pseudonym originated from the policeman relationship.

Maybe the policeman was George Morris?

Why else would Johnny Upright want One-armed Liz to keep her mouth shut?

I don’t understand....my point was just that there are at least two early reports of her being identified by someone as Annie X. So there’s no particular reason to prefer the Morris surname to the Fitzgerald surname. So you should asking also “could the policeman have been named Fitzgerald?”

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Why Annie Morris? Why not Annie Fitzgerald?

Flip of a coin on the last name (and one could be an error), and same first name.

This should be enough extra evidence to suggest we should be talking 'Annie Morris'...

The Identification of Liz Stride:At a late hour last night...A female known as "One-armed Liz"...is said to have accompanied Sergeant Thick to St. George's Mortuary, and recognised the body as that of Annie Morris.

No, besides the statistical fact that some policemen were named Morris so any random policeman has a chance of being a Morris.

So you want to burn information?

Kidney tells us there was a relationship with a policeman, which apparently continued even after the relationship with J.T. Stride began.

Stride also seems to have been known as Annie Morris, so it is not random to suppose that this pseudonym originated from the policeman relationship.

Maybe the policeman was George Morris?

Why else would Johnny Upright want One-armed Liz to keep her mouth shut?

[Kattrup]

It very likely was Liz Stride.

There's just a couple of small issues, though...

From the Irish Times, and London Times, Oct 1...

Another telegram states that the woman murdered in Berner street has been identified as Elizabeth Stride, who, it seems, had been leading a gay life, and had resided latterly in Flower and Dean street. She was identified by a sister living in Holborn.

Late last night the woman murdered in Berner-street was identified by a sister as Elizabeth Stride...

How does Mary Malcolm know the name?


[MA] A woman who is known as "One Armed Liz," living in a common lodging house in Flower and Dean street, informed a representative of the Press that she accompanied Sergeant Thicke to St. George's mortuary and had identified the body as that of Annie Morris, an unfortunate, living in a common lodging house in the neighbourhood of Flower and Dean street. "One Armed Liz" refused to give further information, as she said she had been instructed to keep the matter to herself.

Why 'Annie Morris'?

Kidney: She told me that a policeman used to court her when she was at Hyde Park, before she was married to Stride. Stride and the policeman courted her at the same time, but I never heard of her having a child by the policeman.

Any chance the policeman's name was Morris?

Why Annie Morris? Why not Annie Fitzgerald?

Late last night the woman murdered in Berner-street was identified by a sister as Elizabeth Stride, who, it seems, had resided latterly in Flower and Dean-street. A correspondent, when he was shown the body of the deceased, recognized her by the name of Annie Fitzgerald as having been charged and convicted a great number of times at the Thames Police-court of drunkenness.

No, besides the statistical fact that some policemen were named Morris so any random policeman has a chance of being a Morris.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don’t think anyone really understands that alternate version. Apparently Preston, lane, kidney, Tanner and Ollsen all decided to identify someone else as Stride. Or there were two bodies - not because they saw two bodies but they “referenced” different bodies.

It very likely was Liz Stride.

There's just a couple of small issues, though...

From the Irish Times, and London Times, Oct 1...

Another telegram states that the woman murdered in Berner street has been identified as Elizabeth Stride, who, it seems, had been leading a gay life, and had resided latterly in Flower and Dean street. She was identified by a sister living in Holborn.

Late last night the woman murdered in Berner-street was identified by a sister as Elizabeth Stride...

How does Mary Malcolm know the name?


[MA] A woman who is known as "One Armed Liz," living in a common lodging house in Flower and Dean street, informed a representative of the Press that she accompanied Sergeant Thicke to St. George's mortuary and had identified the body as that of Annie Morris, an unfortunate, living in a common lodging house in the neighbourhood of Flower and Dean street. "One Armed Liz" refused to give further information, as she said she had been instructed to keep the matter to herself.

Why 'Annie Morris'?

Kidney: She told me that a policeman used to court her when she was at Hyde Park, before she was married to Stride. Stride and the policeman courted her at the same time, but I never heard of her having a child by the policeman.

Any chance the policeman's name was Morris?

[Kattrup]

I'm confused. If the deceased was Elizabeth Watts, how did she speak Swedish? Why did she visit Olsen for 17 years and how did she re-animate herself to appear at the inquest as Elizabeth Stokes? If Elizabeth Stride was alive why didn't she say so?

I don’t think anyone really understands that alternate version. Apparently Preston, lane, kidney, Tanner and Ollsen all decided to identify someone else as Stride. Or there were two bodies - not because they saw two bodies but they “referenced” different bodies.
And what Elizabeth Stride the cousin, which Simon Wood started out with, has to do with anything is still not explained. Yet these “hints” are apparently “fascinating”.

[drstrange169]

I'm confused. If the deceased was Elizabeth Watts, how did she speak Swedish? Why did she visit Olsen for 17 years and how did she re-animate herself to appear at the inquest as Elizabeth Stokes? If Elizabeth Stride was alive why didn't she say so?

[packers stem]

It's my belief that JTR was arrested post double event. Reading Bruce Robinson's take on the Packer business is that the timings of selling the grapes were adjusted by Swanson to devalue him as witness and it was SY who hired the two private detectives not the Vigilante committee.

Any funny business with the Stride murder and the double event revolves around the top met boys discovering JTR's identity following his arrest at this time and deciding to protect him from this point onwards.

Both Packer and Hutchinson are reported in the press to have been ignored initially by the police. Coincidence?

Martyn

Hi Martyn
It was A C Bruce who wrote off Packer as a fool to the blind by moving the times ..... not the only occasion times shifted during the investigation

Where the red fruit stains on Stride's handkerchief came from , the ones that Phillips didn't spot the first time, is anyone's guess but it will be any red fruit you can conjure up other than black grape skins ..... it will never be from black grape skin

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don't think I've said that she lied - but let's keep in mind that she did identify the victim as her sister, who then turned up alive and (somewhat) well. So she's definitely untrustworthy. As she says: "She could not answer all the questions put by the coroner because she was so upset, her memory failed her, but they had come into her mind since - she had reasons for not wishing to answer others." Sounds rather scam-like, "ooh I couldn't think of good answers yesterday but now I have!" She then proceeds to tell a story of how her sister was stabbed by her second husband who then flees to NZ, shipwrecking on the way.

So Malcolm may have been confused, mentally ill or deceived. She may also have lied - and for what? To gain attention, to attempt some scam of sympathy, perhaps, or in order to get money for paper interviews.
Perhaps she told the truth as best she knew it, but she got confused about what she'd heard about Stride from someone.

How do we know Stride was the victim? Because she was identified be several people who know her personally over a long period of time.

I think it 95% likely that Stride was the victim.

However, I'm not sure at this stage as to what sort of identity theft or scamming may have occurred.
Regardless, it would seem the following is something MM has made up...

She used to come to me every Saturday, and I always gave her 2s.
The CORONER. - Did she come last Saturday?
Witness. - No; her visit on Thursday was an unusual one. Before that she had not missed a Saturday for between two and three years. She always came at 4 o'clock in the afternoon, and we used to meet at the corner of Chancery-lane. On Saturday afternoon I went there at half-past 3 and remained there until 5, but deceased did not turn up. On Sunday morning, when I read the paper, I wondered whether it was my sister. I had a presentiment that it was. I then went to Whitechapel and spoke to a policeman about my sister. I afterwards went to the St. George's mortuary. When I first saw the body I did not at first recognize it, as I only saw it by gas light; but the next day I recognized it.
The CORONER. - Did not you have some special presentiment about your sister?
Witness. - About 1:20 a.m. on Sunday morning I was lying on my bed when I felt a kind of pressure on my breast, and then I felt three kisses on my cheek. I also heard the kisses, and they were quite distinct.

Did the double event murders make it into any Sunday morning papers?

If MM's presentiment is a fabrication, how did she come to suspect the death of her sister?

Was the choice of St. George's mortuary, a 'lucky' guess?

Someone seems to have given MM the tip.

One of the employers of 'Tall Lisa', perhaps?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Kattrup,
thanks for answers.

There is more detail about Stride's identification, in the Oct 1 papers, than I'd realized.
Some of it quite interesting...

[IT] The woman murdered in Berner street has been identified. There appears to be very little doubt as to this as the belief was current in all parts of the neighbourhood, and a woman who is known as "One Armed Liz," living in a common lodginghouse in Flower and Dean street, stated to a reporter that she had accompanied Sergeant Thicke to St George's mortuary, and had identified the body as that of Annie Stride, an unfortunate, living in a common lodginghouse in the neighbourhood of Flower and Dean street. "One Armed Liz" refused to give further information, as she said she had been instructed to keep the matter to herself. Another rumour was to the effect that the deceased was a Swede and had evidently lived in this country for some years, judging by the fluency with which she spoke the English language. Another telegram states that the woman murdered in Berner street has been identified as Elizabeth Stride, who, it seems, had been leading a gay life, and had resided latterly in Flower and Dean street. She was identified by a sister living in Holborn. Her husband, who resides at Bath, has lived apart from her for nearly five years. Up to 10 o'clock to-night Stride's murderer has not been disclosed.

[T] Late last night the woman murdered in Berner-street was identified by a sister as Elizabeth Stride, who, it seems, had resided latterly in Flower and Dean-street. A correspondent, when he was shown the body of the deceased, recognized her by the name of Annie Fitzgerald as having been charged and convicted a great number of times at the Thames Police-court of drunkenness.

[EN] Files of people were allowed to pass through the mortuary, yesterday, in the hope that some clue would be obtained of the woman's identity. It was late in the afternoon, however, before any one was able to say they knew her. Eventually she was identified as Elizabeth Stride, familiarly known as Long Lizzie, who had been living at a common lodging-house, No. 32, Flower and Dean-street and who plied her painful trade in the neighbourhood. She is said to have a sister in Holborn. She was a married woman separated from her husband, who resides in Bath.


If Kidney went to the inquest on a day he wasn't due to appear, would he lose that day's pay?

If Kidney did not meet Malcolm on the Monday, but only looked at her, how would he have known who she was?
And not talking to MM leaves open the question as to why MK wants his own detective.

I'm not sure about the nickname, as I'm not sure who 'borrowed' from the others identity.

Birthday dinner parties are generally a later invention.

Okay, but what if I was being a bit too literal?
Not a birthday dinner party, in the more modern sense, but a dinner nonetheless, at which they may toast Liz if they do believe it is her birthday.
She dressed to go out, and appears to have eaten a hearty meal when she does.
Some of the comments about her, prior to leaving the lodging house that evening, are interesting...

[E - owing to Thomas Bates at the lodging house] She returned to the house on Tuesday last, after a somewhat prolonged absence, and remained there until Saturday night. That evening she went out about seven o'clock, when she appeared to be in the most cheery spirits, and in excellent health.

[IT] She left Flower and Dean street between 6 and 7 o'clock on Saturday night. She then said she was not going to meet anyone in particular.

Then there is the fascinating witnessing of Stride and Pub Man (to coin a moniker), at the Bricklayer's Arms.

Do you suppose Pub Man might have been someone in particular?

[Michael W Richards]

I suppose for me this puts into question whether the woman they identified was indeed Elizabeth Gustavsdotter from Goteborg Sweden, as this victim has been identified from past research, which was posted here years back. That Elizabeth Stride was far older than the woman who was identified in the morgue, for one. The issue with the palate and the missing teeth. I do agree with one thing NotBlamed said, I do think she was there because she was working that night. I also believe its likely she arrived at that time because it was likely the meeting would have been over for a bit and most people had left. That was the case at that time, a meeting of over 200 people was now just 20-30 socialists singing upstairs.

I haven't formed an opinion on what these facts Simon has posted create as a bigger picture yet, Im just trying to isolate a few incongruities at a time and makes sense of them. Isolate....now theres a word that has been used a lot lately. Be well.

[Kattrup]

I don't see how arriving at a conclusion that Malcolm lied is warranted. How do we know that the person who has been identified as Elizabeth Stride nee Gustavsdotter from Goteborg is this victim? There are differences in these stories Kattrup, its not a done deal that MM lied at all.

I don't think I've said that she lied - but let's keep in mind that she did identify the victim as her sister, who then turned up alive and (somewhat) well. So she's definitely untrustworthy. As she says: "She could not answer all the questions put by the coroner because she was so upset, her memory failed her, but they had come into her mind since - she had reasons for not wishing to answer others." Sounds rather scam-like, "ooh I couldn't think of good answers yesterday but now I have!" She then proceeds to tell a story of how her sister was stabbed by her second husband who then flees to NZ, shipwrecking on the way.

So Malcolm may have been confused, mentally ill or deceived. She may also have lied - and for what? To gain attention, to attempt some scam of sympathy, perhaps, or in order to get money for paper interviews.
Perhaps she told the truth as best she knew it, but she got confused about what she'd heard about Stride from someone.

How do we know Stride was the victim? Because she was identified be several people who know her personally over a long period of time.

[Kattrup]

Unless Elizabeth Watts was fluent in Swedish, I'd say the problem's probably solved.

Absolutely, assuming there was a problem in the first place. Elizabeth Stride was identified by lots of people who knew her, there's no doubt she was the victim.