Who Died in Dutfield's Yard?

[drstrange169]

Wick's comments is spot on.


>>1. What Diemshutz says is unproven until such time as it could be substantiated. There are no corroborative accounts.<<

There IS corroborative, you, for some reason, despite being repeatedly told, choose to ignore it

Diemshitz is reported as saying,

" I ... returned home exactly at 1 a.m. Sunday morning. I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street."

Mortimer claimed,

"Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed ... in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

So, indisputably, we have a pony and cart going down Berner Street very close, "about four minutes" to the time Diemshitz claimed to drive down the street. It has been pointed out to you, but, you've conveniently ignored, the indisputable fact there was no universally synced time in 1888, even more so in the poverty stricken East End where expensive (accurate) clocks did not exist in the houses of the poor.

The time difference is understandable and acceptable to any unbiased serious researcher.



>> Direct Inquest quote from Spooner.."I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard."<<

Note the words "I believe" in that sentence. He doesn't know, he's guessing.

But, yet again you ignore the actual evidence ... his other "direct inquest quotes",

"On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the "Beehive," at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman."

And very specifically on the subject of his accuracy in time keeping.

"The only means I had of fixing the time was by the closing of the public houses."

Indisputably, Spooner's evidence with regards to time is unreliable, so we have to cross reference what he said with other witnesses to see which time is the more likely.

Spooner claimed, on arriving,

"I put my hand under the chin and lifted it. The chin was slightly warm"

Mortimer said,

"A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm"

Since Mortimer didn't leave her house until some time past 1:am, her statement confirms Spooner's first claim about being outside the Beehive at 1:00 am.

Spooner went on to claim,

"I stood by the side of the body for four or five minutes, until the last witness arrived."

PC Lamb tells us,

"About one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street."

Lamb was with the PC who had just finished fixed point duty at 1:am, so we have another independent, reliable, corroboration of Spooner's first time estimate of 1:am.

Solid evidence.

Now let's look at Spooner's other time.

"I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard."

According to your version, Heshburg arrived after hearing the police whistles, Kozebrodski was running around the streets yelling and crowd had gathered, yet Mortimer said,

"I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual."

And,

"The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time."

Her story of a quiet street, devoid of the things you claim were happening, is also corroborated by Goldstein, Charles Letchford's sister and James Brown.

This is all solid evidence.

Heshburg, who's admits he was guessing the time,

" It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think"

is provably wrong in his time estimate, as we know the police whistle he heard was blown
AFTER 1:00am. Heshburg's time is further disputed by Mortimer, Letchford, Goldstein and Brown who all saw and heard none of claimed noise and panic.



Since Issac uses only "I" when describing what happened when he went out for help..<<

Since you'd have us believe Issacs "I" inviable.
and in the next sentence claim Eagle's "I" is not, you'll understand why we use terms like cherrypicking.

[DJA]

In the 1950s we had two clocks.

The living room's was a coach clock Mum took pride in that she wound daily.
It kept excellent time and woe betide anyone who touched it.

The kitchen's alarm clock was a different matter,it gained time.
At times it was as much as 20 minutes "fast".
Not a big deal as in the morning as it got us off to work/school early.
We knew from the radio how fast it was running.

Adjusting the time meant winding a clock forward,as winding it back would break the mechanism.

I've seen businesses manipulated clocks to suit a purpose.
One pub kept their clock 5 minutes early to give them a bit more time to get customers off licensed premises at closing time.
South Molle Island used anti daylight savings,the idea being that guests would spend an extra hour in the bar rather than out in the sunshine.

[Michael W Richards]

3 of the 4 corroborative witnesses I keep harping on came from inside the club and therefore they all had a clock to assess the current time by. Fanny Mortimer had access to a clock in her home. Very reasonable assumptions. Therefore, Louis didn't arrive "precisely" at 1 by Fannys clock, and he was off by as much as 20 minutes with the club clock.

I agree Jon that Defense mode is active, but not that it clouds open mindedness for contradictory arguments that make sense and don't discard evidence with corroboration for unsubstantiated singular stories.

[Michael W Richards]

Wick's comments is spot on.


>>1. What Diemshutz says is unproven until such time as it could be substantiated. There are no corroborative accounts.<<

There IS corroborative, you, for some reason, despite being repeatedly told, choose to ignore it

Diemshitz is reported as saying,

" I ... returned home exactly at 1 a.m. Sunday morning. I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street."

Mortimer claimed,

"Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed ... in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

So, indisputably, we have a pony and cart going down Berner Street very close, "about four minutes" to the time Diemshitz claimed to drive down the street. It has been pointed out to you, but, you've conveniently ignored, the indisputable fact there was no universally synced time in 1888, even more so in the poverty stricken East End where expensive (accurate) clocks did not exist in the houses of the poor.

The time difference is understandable and acceptable to any unbiased serious researcher.



>> Direct Inquest quote from Spooner.."I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard."<<

Note the words "I believe" in that sentence. He doesn't know, he's guessing.

But, yet again you ignore the actual evidence ... his other "direct inquest quotes",

"On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the "Beehive," at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman."

And very specifically on the subject of his accuracy in time keeping.

"The only means I had of fixing the time was by the closing of the public houses."

Indisputably, Spooner's evidence with regards to time is unreliable, so we have to cross reference what he said with other witnesses to see which time is the more likely.

Spooner claimed, on arriving,

"I put my hand under the chin and lifted it. The chin was slightly warm"

Mortimer said,

"A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm"

Since Mortimer didn't leave her house until some time past 1:am, her statement confirms Spooner's first claim about being outside the Beehive at 1:00 am.

Spooner went on to claim,

"I stood by the side of the body for four or five minutes, until the last witness arrived."

PC Lamb tells us,

"About one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street."

Lamb was with the PC who had just finished fixed point duty at 1:am, so we have another independent, reliable, corroboration of Spooner's first time estimate of 1:am.

Solid evidence.

Now let's look at Spooner's other time.

"I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard."

According to your version, Heshburg arrived after hearing the police whistles, Kozebrodski was running around the streets yelling and crowd had gathered, yet Mortimer said,

"I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual."

And,

"The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time."

Her story of a quiet street, devoid of the things you claim were happening, is also corroborated by Goldstein, Charles Letchford's sister and James Brown.

This is all solid evidence.

Heshburg, who's admits he was guessing the time,

" It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think"

is provably wrong in his time estimate, as we know the police whistle he heard was blown
AFTER 1:00am. Heshburg's time is further disputed by Mortimer, Letchford, Goldstein and Brown who all saw and heard none of claimed noise and panic.



Since Issac uses only "I" when describing what happened when he went out for help..<<

Since you'd have us believe Issacs "I" inviable.
and in the next sentence claim Eagle's "I" is not, you'll understand why we use terms like cherrypicking.

You've consistently referred to things like whistles being heard, cart and horses being heard as things we can specifically attribute to specific people, which of course we cant. A whistle, and a cart and a horse...not a police whistle and Louis cart. No-one saw anyone. And you've used the "deserted streets" from Fanny without then contrasting that with Israel Schwartz. The street cant be both. Sure, Spooners time is subjective, but handily we have 3 other witnesses to substantiate it. We have no-one to substantiate Louis, Morris, Joe or Israel. And 4 witnesses to dispute their claims, all of whom agree with the general scene they witnessed and the time at which that occurred. Independently.

I have no idea how you came to some conclusions about what I actually said, it seems you either intentionally misrepresent what I have said in some cases, or completely missed the point or the context of it.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

You've consistently referred to things like whistles being heard, cart and horses being heard as things we can specifically attribute to specific people, which of course we cant. A whistle, and a cart and a horse...not a police whistle and Louis cart.

Hi Michael.

That's an argument that's not really any different from reasonably assuming the club and Mrs Mortimer had clocks. That worked. And were accurate. And had been wound up that day etc. Likewise the clock in Harris'. Reasonably, if someone heard a whistle, around and about the time a policeman blew a whistle, it's a reasonable assumption.....
The sound of a police whistle is probably one of the few things that can be used to fix a sequence of events. Not the specific times but the order in which a few of the characters become involved with the scene. I had tried working on a timeline of events not relying so heavily on stated times and more on the chain of events, but to be fair, it's a bit of a quagmire.

Who are these 4 witness' you keep 'harping on about'?

[Wickerman]

3 of the 4 corroborative witnesses I keep harping on came from inside the club and therefore they all had a clock to assess the current time by. Fanny Mortimer had access to a clock in her home. Very reasonable assumptions. Therefore, Louis didn't arrive "precisely" at 1 by Fannys clock, and he was off by as much as 20 minutes with the club clock.

I agree Jon that Defense mode is active, but not that it clouds open mindedness for contradictory arguments that make sense and don't discard evidence with corroboration for unsubstantiated singular stories.

In both cases you seem to be assuming your witnesses checked the time before they encountered the murdered woman. Naturally, a club will have a public clock in the main room downstairs, but we are told most of the action, singing and dancing, was going on upstairs. However, as no witness referred to this club clock in their statements then why do you think it is reasonable to assume they knew the correct time?

Then there's Mortimer, for some reason you assume she had a clock, yet she makes no reference to one.
I suspect your problem here is you are crediting these people in the 19th century with all the modern conveniences & luxuries available to us today. It's just not the case, a timepiece was an expensive item, the East End was known for lacking the acceptable amenities found elsewhere across London.
It's a leap too far Michael.

Most East End residents gauged the time by the local chimes of town & church clocks, this is a well known fact. This is thee most common method to assume, not that everyone had a clock.

[Abby Normal]

In both cases you seem to be assuming your witnesses checked the time before they encountered the murdered woman. Naturally, a club will have a public clock in the main room downstairs, but we are told most of the action, singing and dancing, was going on upstairs. However, as no witness referred to this club clock in their statements then why do you think it is reasonable to assume they knew the correct time?

Then there's Mortimer, for some reason you assume she had a clock, yet she makes no reference to one.
I suspect your problem here is you are crediting these people in the 19th century with all the modern conveniences & luxuries available to us today. It's just not the case, a timepiece was an expensive item, the East End was known for lacking the acceptable amenities found elsewhere across London.
It's a leap too far Michael.

Most East End residents gauged the time by the local chimes of town & church clocks, this is a well known fact. This is thee most common method to assume, not that everyone had a clock.

exactly. like they knew a murder was about to take place.

better check the time. the most notorious serial killer in history is about to strike. lol its why i put this clown on ignore.

[Joshua Rogan]

It's far from a certainty that the club would have had a clock inside. When Wess was asked how he knew what time he left the club, he didn't refer to any club timepiece;

From Daily Telegraph coverage
"[Coroner] How do you know that you finally left at a quarter-past twelve o'clock? - Because of the time when I reached my lodgings"

[Wickerman]

It's far from a certainty that the club would have had a clock inside. When Wess was asked how he knew what time he left the club, he didn't refer to any club timepiece;

From Daily Telegraph coverage
"[Coroner] How do you know that you finally left at a quarter-past twelve o'clock? - Because of the time when I reached my lodgings"

Thats not really an answer though is it, he still doesn't refer to a clock.

If I recall, someone described a passage inside the house that led to the side door, to the right was a room, or the kitchen?

The internal layout was probably the same as any house, likely that is what it was before the club took over. So, the main room may have been the front room of the house, the street door (front door) led to a passage that ran down the left side of the house to the side door.
Wess didn't need to go into the ground floor main room to exit the club, he just came in from the yard via the side door, then down the passage to the front door, and out into the street.
So he probably saw no clock, if there even was one in the main room.

[DJA]

The passage was the the length of the house.

The front room was used for feeding people.

The next door was the stairway.

Then the kitchen.

The "main room" was atop the stairway.

Wess and wife probably resided on the top floor above that.

[MrBarnett]

The passage was the the length of the house.

The front room was used for feeding people.

The next door was the stairway.

Then the kitchen.

The "main room" was atop the stairway.

Wess and wife probably resided on the top floor above that.

Dave,

Where do you imagine Israel Goldstein and his large household were situated?

Gary

[DJA]

Suspect the answer is 22 Christian Street.

Not sure you have the question right though

[MrBarnett]

Suspect the answer is 22 Christian Street.

Not sure you have the question right though

I’m talking about Israel Goldstein, whose large family were occupying at least 5 rooms in 40 BS in 1891, and who according to one of his daughters’ school records was living at the address in April, 1888. He seems a good match for the caretaker of the club identified by Booth in 1887 - a Jewish tailor with at least 5 kids at the time, and the Booth tailors’ survey of 1888 cites a tailor named Goldstein at the address.


It all seems to add up, but I’ve never heard any mention of him in relation to the Stride case.

[MrBarnett]

[DJA]

I’ve never heard any mention of him in relation to the Stride case.

Neither have I.

Good luck with that.