Who Died in Dutfield's Yard?

[Kattrup]

Kattrup,
wondering if you have thoughts on any of the following...

How do you suppose Malcolm and Kidney came to know of the death, respectively?

Kidney probably heard of it from rumours and talk in the East End. In papers dated October 1st her name was mentioned, that is, already Sunday evening/night it was believed to be her and a reporter actually visited the lodging house at 11 o'clock Sunday evening, it seems. So it was not unknown that it was believed to be Stride.
Malcolm we cannot at present know how she heard, since we do not at present know why she said what she said. In her own statement, she says that owing to her sister missing their fixed appointment on Saturday, she was concerned for her. When she heard a woman had been murdered, she approached a police officer and described her sister to him. She was then admitted to the mortuary to make the id, which she failed to do, but returning Monday she did.

Do you have any ideas about why MM & MK may have crossed paths on the Monday, other than coincidental timing?

The most likely answer is that they both attended the inquest, which commenced Monday.

Do you suppose that the information exchanged at the meeting, was the impetus for Kidney asking for a 'strange, young detective'.

No, since I do not believe there was a meeting, so no information was exchanged. Kidney just says that he saw Malcolm, not that they spoke or anything. Probably they were both at the inquest and he saw her there

Do you believe some of the stuff Liz Stride told Kidney, such as having 9 children and the story about the Princess Alice disaster?

No. About the children, no record of childbirth has been found, as far as I know, neither in the UK nor in Sweden, which is perhaps somewhat unusual in that she did live with Stride for years. About the Princess Alice, no record of her there has been found and we know for a fact that her husband did not drown, but lived for several years afterwards.

At 5'5", was Liz Stride actually 'long', or was it Liz Watts/Stokes who was the tall one of the two?

I do not know which was taller, nor do I know if her nickname was a reference to her height. It appears you assume it was?

Mary Malcolm claimed her sister was 37, and Kidney believed Stride to be 36-38. Who had 'borrowed' who's date of birth?

Most people who saw Stride believed her to be younger than she was, I think. Stride was born 1843, aI don't know when Stokes was born but Mary Malcolm was born 1842 and Elizabeth her sister was younger, putting her sometime around 1845 maybe? In the census for 1891 she's listed as 49 which would mean born 1842, but those are of course unreliable. Debra Arif has her census records, I believe. But it seems Malcolm was not actually giving her sister's real age, which would have been 40+, perhaps again indicating that she was merely repeating information about Stride (i.e. her perceived age) that she'd heard.

The Irish Times quotes Malcolm saying:

I last saw the deceased alive on Thursday last at a quarter to 7 in the evening.
...
She was 37 on the 27th of last month.

Apparently Mary saw her sister on her birthday.

ok

Charles Preston:

[T] I last saw her alive on Saturday evening, between 6 and 7 o'clock. At that time she was in the kitchen of the lodginghouse and was dressed ready to go out. She asked me for the loan of a clothes-brush. At that time she had on a black jacket trimmed with fur, and it is the same one I have seen in the mortuary. She wore a coloured striped silk handkerchief round her neck, and it was the same as I saw in the mortuary. I have not seen her with a pocket-handkerchief, and am unable to say if she had two.
[DT] ...but no flowers in the breast.

Dr Phillips autopsy:

[DN] stomach ... contained partly digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous edibles...

Did Liz Stride go to her own 'birthday' dinner party, on the Saturday night?

No, she did not. Birthday dinner parties are generally a later invention.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

There is a section in the Daily News, Oct 3, that seems worth a read:

The Central News states that it obtained information yesterday afternoon respecting the antecedents of the woman murdered in Berner-street, which throws very grave doubt upon the evidence of Mrs. Manson [Malcolm], who at the inquest said that she had seen the body, and identified it as that of her sister. There is, it is urged, every reason to believe that Mrs. Manson, who at first was not at all certain in the identification, is really mistaken, and that her sister will sooner or latter be found alive and well. An old artilleryman, who had lived for the past three years with Eliza Stride-otherwise known as "Long Liz"-averred yesterday afternoon that he has identified Stride's body at the mortuary without any difficulty. She was, according to his statement, last seen alive on Saturday night at 32, Flower and Dean-street, between six and seven o'clock, when she was in good health. She was of cleanly habits, and had apparently been well educated in her own language-Swedish. She could cook and keep house well, and was expert in the use of the sewing machine, knitting, and all kinds of needlework. The man first became acquainted with her about three years ago when he met her in Commercial-street, and he had lived with her ever since, except during occasional intervals, when she went away to work for some Jews. He lived with her at 35 Devonshire-street down to five months ago, when they moved to No. 36 in the same street. She was quiet and industrious, but was sometimes the worse for drink. Her manner was peculiar. At times she would say that she was going out for half an hour, and would absent herself for two or three days. Before her marriage she was a domestic servant near Hyde-park, and afterwards she and her husband kept a coffee-shop and boarding-house in Crisp-street, Poplar. She lost her husband in the Princess Alice disaster, as well as two children, one of whom was drowned in the father's arms. She herself escaped by climbing up a rope as the vessel was sinking. A man who had got upon the rope before her slipped and kicked her accidentally in the mouth, knocking out her front teeth. Her husband, who was a ship's carpenter, did a good deal of work in the building of the Great Eastern steamship, and the woman herself put the cushions and fittings in their proper places after the vessel was launched. When she became a widow she sold the coffee-shop and went to live in Cannon-street-road. She used to say that she was the mother of nine children. She frequently attended the Swedish church in Princes-street. The man with whom she afterwards lived believes that her surviving children are being brought up in the country at a school connected with the Swedish church. The woman had no relatives in England, but she said that she had a brother-in-law practicing as a surgeon in Kent. She had spoken of a sister residing about three miles from Stockholm. It is understood that the police are in communication with the brother-in-law.

The 'old artilleryman' - Michael Kidney - states that she was 'last seen alive on Saturday night at 32, Flower and Dean-street, between six and seven o'clock, when she was in good health.'
Not sure if this is significant, but how does Kidney know this at this stage?
He said to Baxter that he had last seen stride the previous Tuesday (Sep 25).

[Coroner] When did you last see her?
[Kidney] On the Tuesday, and I then left her on friendly terms in Commercial- street. That was between nine and ten o'clock at night, as I was coming from work.
[Coroner] Did you expect her home?
[Kidney] I expected her home half an hour afterwards. I subsequently ascertained that she had been in and had gone out again, and I did not see her again alive.

The inquest testimonies of Tanner, Lane and Preston, occur on Oct 3, the same day Kidney testifies.
However, the CN information above, was obtained 'yesterday afternoon' - today's edition being Oct 3 - and Kidney 'averred yesterday afternoon that he has identified Stride's body at the mortuary without any difficulty', regarding his visit to the mortuary the day prior.
Thomas Bates apparently sees Stride arriving at the Flower and Dean street lodging house on the Tuesday evening, so if Kidney ascertains that Stride had been in and gone out again, after seeing her between 9 and 10 pm, then Bates must have been aware of her arrival after that time.

Also worth considering what Kidney says about Stride's work skills - She could cook and keep house well, and was expert in the use of the sewing machine, knitting, and all kinds of needlework.
And that at occasional intervals, she 'she went away to work for some Jews'.

On her person was found:

[Dr Phillips] I found in the pocket of the underskirt of the deceased a key as of a padlock, a small piece of lead pencil, a comb, and a broken piece of comb, a metal spoon, half-a-dozen large and one small button, and a hook, as if off a dress, a piece of muslin, and one or two small pieces of paper.

[DI Reid] In her jacket pocket were two handkerchiefs, a thimble, and a piece of wool on a card.

Quite possibly, Stride was killed at her place of casual work.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

the point is, the only one claiming any similar details between stride and Stokes is Malcolm.

Kattrup,
wondering if you have thoughts on any of the following...

How do you suppose Malcolm and Kidney came to know of the death, respectively?

Do you have any ideas about why MM & MK may have crossed paths on the Monday, other than coincidental timing?

Do you suppose that the information exchanged at the meeting, was the impetus for Kidney asking for a 'strange, young detective'.

Do you believe some of the stuff Liz Stride told Kidney, such as having 9 children and the story about the Princess Alice disaster?

At 5'5", was Liz Stride actually 'long', or was it Liz Watts/Stokes who was the tall one of the two?

Mary Malcolm claimed her sister was 37, and Kidney believed Stride to be 36-38. Who had 'borrowed' who's date of birth?

The Irish Times quotes Malcolm saying:

I last saw the deceased alive on Thursday last at a quarter to 7 in the evening.
...
She was 37 on the 27th of last month.

Apparently Mary saw her sister on her birthday.

Charles Preston:

[T] I last saw her alive on Saturday evening, between 6 and 7 o'clock. At that time she was in the kitchen of the lodginghouse and was dressed ready to go out. She asked me for the loan of a clothes-brush. At that time she had on a black jacket trimmed with fur, and it is the same one I have seen in the mortuary. She wore a coloured striped silk handkerchief round her neck, and it was the same as I saw in the mortuary. I have not seen her with a pocket-handkerchief, and am unable to say if she had two.
[DT] ...but no flowers in the breast.

Dr Phillips autopsy:

[DN] stomach ... contained partly digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous edibles...

Did Liz Stride go to her own 'birthday' dinner party, on the Saturday night?

[drstrange169]

Sven Olsson said:- I live at 36, Prince's-square, and am clerk to the Swedish Church in that square. I saw the body of the deceased in the mortuary on Tuesday morning. I have known deceased about 17 years.
The CORONER. - Was she a Swede? -Yes.
What was her name? - Elizabeth Gustafsdotter was her maiden name. Elizabeth Stride was her married name, and she was the wife of John Thomas Stride, a ship's carpenter. She was born on the 27th of November, 1843 at Forslander, near Gottenburg, in Sweden.
...
The CORONER. - When was she registered? Witness. - Our register is dated July 10,1866. She was registered as an unmarried woman.
The CORONER. - How do you know she was the wife of John Thomas Stride? Witness. - I suppose she gave it to the clergyman, as it is written here. In the registry I find a memorandum, undated, in the handwriting of the Rev. Mr. Palmar, in abbreviated Swedish. It means, "married to an Englishman, John Thomas Stride." I do not know when this entry was made.
The CORONER. - How long has Mr. Palmar been at the church? Witness. - About a year. This registry is a new one and copied from an older book. I have seen the original entry, and it was written many years ago.

...
Inspector Reid. - Do you know this hymnbook? Witness. - Yes.
The CORONER. - Is there any name in it? Witness. - No; I gave it to the deceased last winter.
The CORONER. - Do you know when she was married to Stride? Witness. - I think it was in 1869. She told me her husband was drowned in the Princess Alice.
The CORONER. - Have you any schools connected with the Swedish Church? Witness. - No; I do not remember hearing she ever had any children. She told me her husband went down in the Princess Alice.
The CORONER. - Have you ever seen her husband? Witness. - No; I think we gave the deceased some assistance before we knew her husband was dead. I forget where she was living at the time, but two years ago she gave her address as Devonshire-street, Commercial-road. She said she was doing a little work - sewing. Deceased could speak English pretty well.

Unless Elizabeth Watts was fluent in Swedish, I'd say the problem's probably solved.

[Simon Wood]

Mrs. Elizabeth Watts/Sneller/Stokes had received an anonymous letter from Shepton Mallet, saying that her first husband [of three] Edward Watts, was alive. It sounds akin to a blackmail letter, but we can't say for certain. She had brought her "poor crippled" third husband, Joseph Stokes, to the inquest. "He is now outside," she told the coroner.

Elizabeth Watts second husband was mentioned at the inquest by Mary Malcolm. The conversation went—

[Malcolm] Oh yes; she lived with a man.
[Coroner] Do you know his name?
[Malcolm] I do not remember now, but I shall be able to tell you to- morrow. I believe she lived with a man who kept a coffee-house at Poplar.
[Inspector Reid] Was his name Stride?
[Malcolm] No; I think it was Dent, but I can find out for certain by to-morrow.
[Coroner] How long had she ceased to live with that man?
[Malcolm] Oh, some time. He went away to sea, and was wrecked on the Isle of St. Paul, I believe.
[Coroner] How long ago should you think that was? - It must be three years and a half; but I could tell you all about it by to-morrow, even the name of the vessel that was wrecked.

Elizabeth Stokes second husband, Joseph Sneller, was in the navy. He was a scoundrel, and punished for desertion, disobedience and insolence. Here's part of his naval record—



The name of his ship was HMS Megaera. It was wrecked on the uninhabited island of St. Paul in the Indian Ocean. Mrs Malcolm put the incident at mid-1884. It actually took place in July 1871. On 29th August 1871 the ships Malacca and HMS Rinaldo arrived and took off the survivors.

All the crew survived and were shipped to Singapore.

This means that all three of Elizabeth Watts husbands were alive.

There was a lot going on at the Stride inquest, including the letter from Shepton Mallet

Regards,

Simon

[Michael W Richards]

I don’t know what to tell you, Michael, I think you didn’t read my reply very thoroughly.

”What has happened is rather that MM used garbled details from Stride’s life when describing her sister. That is why so many details seem similar.”

Everything Malcolm says about her sister is untrue (maybe not literally, I haven’t checked).
The sister shows up and says it’s a lie!

The witnesses like Tanner who knew Stride are giving details about Stride. Malcolm did not know Stride but at the inquest knows some details of her life and use that knowledge to make it appear plausible that stride was her sister Stokes.

So Malcolm is giving details about Stride when describing her sister. How does she know these details? That is as yet unknown. I haven’t checked how many details of Stride’s life appeared in the press early. Sshe may have asked around. Or as said, there’s the theory that she did know stride, but that stride posed as her sister Stokes, feeding Malcolm snippets of her own life story.

the point is, the only one claiming any similar details between stride and Stokes is Malcolm.

Ok, maybe I did get your message skewed a bit, but I don't see how arriving at a conclusion that Malcolm lied is warranted. How do we know that the person who has been identified as Elizabeth Stride nee Gustavsdotter from Goteborg is this victim? There are differences in these stories Kattrup, its not a done deal that MM lied at all.

[Kattrup]

Either you just missed these remarks or chose not to look for them, but that's Mary Malcolm saying her sister lived in Poplar with a man who kept a coffee house, that her sister Elizabeth Watts was called "Long Liz" and Elizabeth Tanner saying Liz Stride was known as "Long Liz."
My point therefore is still as viable as it was before your post...why do we see witnesses who knew Elizabeth Stride giving details of her life that are also given by Mary Malcolm about her sister Elizabeth Watts?[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

I don’t know what to tell you, Michael, I think you didn’t read my reply very thoroughly.

”What has happened is rather that MM used garbled details from Stride’s life when describing her sister. That is why so many details seem similar.”

Everything Malcolm says about her sister is untrue (maybe not literally, I haven’t checked).
The sister shows up and says it’s a lie!

The witnesses like Tanner who knew Stride are giving details about Stride. Malcolm did not know Stride but at the inquest knows some details of her life and use that knowledge to make it appear plausible that stride was her sister Stokes.

So Malcolm is giving details about Stride when describing her sister. How does she know these details? That is as yet unknown. I haven’t checked how many details of Stride’s life appeared in the press early. Sshe may have asked around. Or as said, there’s the theory that she did know stride, but that stride posed as her sister Stokes, feeding Malcolm snippets of her own life story.

the point is, the only one claiming any similar details between stride and Stokes is Malcolm.

[jerryd]

Was Elizabeth Watts or Elizabeth Stride known as "Wally Warden"?


-the news quickly spread that a woman had visited the Whitechapel mortuary, and identified the body found in Berner-street as that of an unfortunate of her acquaintance named "Wally" Warden, who had lived in Brick-lane.

-The two new victims are called Isabel Stride, known among her companions by the nickname "Long Liz" and Wally Warden.

-A third account says the victim was an unfortunate, named "Wally" Warden, who had lived in Brick-lane.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Either you just missed these remarks or chose not to look for them, but that's Mary Malcolm saying her sister lived in Poplar with a man, that her sister Elizabeth Watts was called "Long Liz" and Elizabeth Tanner saying Liz Stride was known as "Long Liz."

Was Liz Stride known as 'Long Liz' because she'd been given that nickname, or because Liz was in the habit of telling people that that was her nickname, after she nicked it from Liz Watts?

[Michael W Richards]

do they? MM’s sister had three husbands, none of whom was police, as far as I know (wine merchant, seaman/Royal Navy, bricklayer) and she resided in places like Bath, Peckham, Tottenham. “ I never lived in Commercial road nor kept a coffee house at Poplar” she said.

What has happened is rather that MM used garbled details from Stride’s life when describing her sister. That is why so many details seem similar. The coroner, in summing up, mentions a lot of details which many seem to accept as true. But it is important to note that he qualifies the list “If her evidence was correct, there were points of resemblance between the deceased and Elizabeth Watts which almost reminded one of the Comedy of Errors.” (my bold).

why would and how could MM know what she did? we don’t know for sure and until further sources surface, we cannot know.
She was a ghoulish attention seeker or she was mentally ill could be the why, the how could be from talking to people, either before or during the inquest, or perhaps details of Stride’s life were mentioned by the press.
Another theory is that Stride was scamming MM, posing as MM’s sister in order to receive alms. Against that speaks Stride’s accent, which according to Lane and Ollsen was noticeable, according to Tanner however she spoke English like an Englishwoman. A scam like that would explain the coincidence of Liz MM’s “sister” asking for help for lodging and Stride going to the lodging house same evening. So the person MM though was her sister was actually Stride, which explains why her description of the sister sounds like Stride.
Interesting theory, at least it has a lot more going for it than Simon Wood’s odd theory of...something quite uncertain involving witnesses referencing different bodies.



No need to wonder, as the witnesses speak it plainly: “She was known by the nick-name of "Long Liz." and “Did you recognise it? - Yes, as the body of Long Liz”

From Mary Malcolm..."Has she ever told you of troubles she was in with any man? - Oh yes; she lived with a man.
[Coroner] Do you know his name? - I do not remember now, but I shall be able to tell you to- morrow. I believe she lived with a man who kept a coffee-house in Poplar.

To Mary Malcolm..."Did you ever hear her called "Long Liz"? - That was generally her nickname, I believe.

To Elizabeth Tanner"[Coroner] Who is she? - She was known by the nick-name of "Long Liz."

Either you just missed these remarks or chose not to look for them, but that's Mary Malcolm saying her sister lived in Poplar with a man who kept a coffee house, that her sister Elizabeth Watts was called "Long Liz" and Elizabeth Tanner saying Liz Stride was known as "Long Liz."
My point therefore is still as viable as it was before your post...why do we see witnesses who knew Elizabeth Stride giving details of her life that are also given by Mary Malcolm about her sister Elizabeth Watts?

[Kattrup]

I'm pretty sure he does mean strange, as in a stranger, ie unknown in the area.
Some reports even say as much, ie the Daily News "He wanted a young detective who was not known in the district".
Others have him saying "The parties I obtained my information from knew me, and I thought someone else would be able to derive more from them"

Very likely, Joshua, thanks.

[Joshua Rogan]

I haven’t seen the original but I’ve always assumed strange to be a mistype or misread for strong. It’s in other places as well in the transcripts, as I recall, “strange” where one would expect “strong”

I'm pretty sure he does mean strange, as in a stranger, ie unknown in the area.
Some reports even say as much, ie the Daily News "He wanted a young detective who was not known in the district".
Others have him saying "The parties I obtained my information from knew me, and I thought someone else would be able to derive more from them"

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I haven’t seen the original but I’ve always assumed strange to be a mistype or misread for strong. It’s in other places as well in the transcripts, as I recall, “strange” where one would expect “strong”

Why do you suppose Kidney also specifies that he needs a young detective?
What would be wrong with having a highly experienced, middle-aged detective?
Simple - almost all the IWMEC members are young - late teens to late twenties - so the undercover detective has to be young too.

[Kattrup]

So what could Kidney mean by 'strange young detective'?
The clue might come from this part of the exchange with Baxter:

[Kidney] I have information which I think might be of use to the police.
[Coroner] You had better give it, then.
[Kidney] I believe that, if I could place the policeman myself, the man would be captured.

So where does Kidney want to place his strange young detective?
By interpreting 'strange' as a euphemism for 'foreign', the answer becomes fairly clear

I haven’t seen the original but I’ve always assumed strange to be a mistype or misread for strong. It’s in other places as well in the transcripts, as I recall, “strange” where one would expect “strong”

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Kattrup,

A meeting is a coming together of two or more people, by chance or arrangement.

[Malcolm] I have seen the body at the mortuary. I saw it once on Sunday and twice yesterday [Monday].

[Kidney] At Leman-street Police-station, on Monday night, I asked for a detective to give information to get the man.

[Kidney] On Monday I saw Mrs. Malcolm, who said the deceased was her sister. She is very like the deceased.

I do not know whether they met at the mortuary or Leman Street police station

Regards,

Simon

We get a more specific idea of what Michael Kidney meant by 'She is very like the deceased', from other papers...

[MA1004] The witness Malcolm very much represents the appearance of the deceased woman.

[DN1004] By the Jury-The witness (Mrs. Malcolm), who stated that she was the sister of the deceased, very much represents the appearance of the deceased. The latter never had a child by me, but she told me that she had been intimate with a policeman when she lived at Hyde-park and before she was married to Stride. I never heard that she had a child by the policeman. She told me she had been the mother of nine children. Two of them were drowned in the Princess Alice disaster, and the others are in some school connected with the Swedish Church, somewhere over London-bridge. The deceased could speak Yiddish.

So Mary Malcolm looks a lot like Swedish Stride.
It would not be a stretch to therefore suppose that Elizabeth Stokes also looks like Liz Stride.
So although Malcolm needed a couple of goes at identifying the victim at the mortuary, she was not codding when she told Baxter she was sure it was her sister.
Are we dealing with a case of identity theft?

Kidney's reference to Stride speaking Yiddish, also appears in the Times:

I thoroughly believe the deceased was a Swede, and came from a superior class. She could also speak Yiddish.

That might help her in gaining employment. Or maybe it already had:

[Elizabeth Tanner] She told me she was working among the Jews.

Kidney's remarks about having a detective at his disposal, are very curious...

[Kidney] I could give information that would enable the detectives to discover the man at any time.
[Coroner] Then will you give us your information now?
[Kidney] I told the inspector on duty at the police-station that I could give information provided he would let me have a young, strange detective to act on it, and he would not give me one.
[Coroner] What do you think should be inquired into?
[Kidney] I might have given information that would have led to a great deal if I had been provided with a strange young detective.
[A Juror] Have you got any information for a detective?
[Kidney] I am a great lover of discipline, sir. (Laughter.)

So what could Kidney mean by 'strange young detective'?
The clue might come from this part of the exchange with Baxter:

[Kidney] I have information which I think might be of use to the police.
[Coroner] You had better give it, then.
[Kidney] I believe that, if I could place the policeman myself, the man would be captured.

So where does Kidney want to place his strange young detective?
By interpreting 'strange' as a euphemism for 'foreign', the answer becomes fairly clear; Inside the Berner street club.
Kidney wants a young policeman of Eastern European background, to join the IWMEC for the purpose of spying on it, in relation to the murderer and further murders.
For obvious reasons, he cannot announce this at the inquest...

[Inspector Reid] But you have no information to give to the police?
[Kidney] No, I will keep it to myself.