Who Died in Dutfield's Yard?

[Michael W Richards]

Like I said, the Daily News is paraphrase, no quotes are used. You putting them in doesn't change the fact the original is not in quotes.

A young Russian Pole named Isaac M. Kozebrodski, born in Warsaw, who speaks the English language imperfectly, gave the following information:-I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one.

Kozebrodski is not quoted as giving a time.

You just posted him giving a time Jon. A Rough estimate yes, but a full 20 minutes before Louis says he even arrived. Is it your contention that Issac, who had checked the clock when he arrived back at the club 10 minutes earlier....he knew when he returned.... was off in his estimates by 20 minutes? What about the fact he says Louis sent him out alone? Selective acceptance of statements...or are all the statements of value. 4 match....that's hard to just brush aside with feeble sweeps.

[Michael W Richards]

A better question would be, what was Spooner during from 1:40 to 1:00 ? Since Mortimer who didn't leave her house until after 1:00 saw Spooner touching Mrs Strides head, something Spooner says he did as soon as he arrived.

So he couldn't have touched her twice? Seems like a few people may have touched her doc.

[Michael W Richards]

>>So...what do you think that they are doing from 12:45 until after 1?<<

Diemshitz was on his way home at 12:45, arriving some time very close 1:00 a.m as confirmed by Fanny Mortimer,

"... she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

Eagle was in a room with 20 to 30 witnesses, singing until some time very close to 1:00 a.m.

"just after one o'clock, there were some 20 or 30 members in the club room upstairs." Julius Minsky

Woolf Wess was at his home by 12:30 with at least two witnesses to corroborate his journey home, his brother and Lewis Selzi. He shared the house with two women, presumably they also could have also corroborated his story.

On the other hand, a very confused Spooner gave two differing times at the inquest.

First version,

"Between half-past 12 and 1 o'clock on Sunday morning I was standing outside the Bee Hive publichouse..."

This version is confirmed by Fanny Mortimer who did not see or hear anyone prior to her claim of Diemshitz's cart arriving around 1:00 a.m.

Charles Letchworth's sister was at her door further up Berner St. and she also heard and saw nothing usual.

It is also confirmed by James Brown, who was in the street at 12:45 and saw and heard no sight or sound of commotion. The first commotion he heard was at 1:00.a.m..

Spooner second version,

"I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard."

Is not only disputed by Mortimer, Letchford, Brown, Deimshitz, Eagle, Minsky at.al., but PC Lamb who according to Spooner, arrived within minutes of him. PC Lamb's sworn testimony is that he was still in Commercial Road at 1:00 a.m.. A discrepancy of some 15 minutes.

And so it goes on.

In that first Line Fanny Mortimer can only be used to invalidate Louis's claim he arrived "precisely" at 1, she doesn't confirm anything he said...or Israel, or Morris...

She heard A cart and horse after 1, Louis cannot be identified by that. Again, you say Louis arrived at 1am by Fanny. He DID NOT ARRIVE WHILE SHE WAS AT HER DOOR UNTIL JUST AFTER 1 WHEN SHE WENT BACK IN. Clear enough? He said he arrived "precisely" at 1...which is of course, by Fanny, provably wrong. James Brown didn't see the street in front of the gates.

Among the witnesses you state were singing upstairs, 2 said that they were by Louis and others and the dying woman at 12:40-12:45, 1 who arrived aback at the club at 12:30 said the same. And Spooners estimate also puts him there at that time.

I am so tired of the crap some of you try to use to bolster b***s*** arguments why an overwhelming majority of the witness in this case say they were by the dying woman at between 12:40 and 12:45 were all wrong, and ALL the uncoborrberated, non validate club affiliated witnesses were somehow right. Its quite frankly disconcerting that people who imagine themselves intellectuals prefer fantasy to reality.

Easy to see why these cases cant be properly evaluated,.... myth, denial and presumptions. Despite the fact we have some real insights available within the knowns. I

[Michael W Richards]

A factual Baseline.....4 witnesses say they were by Liz Stride as she is dying at 12:40-12:45. All their stories match one anothers. NONE of the other stories have any corroboration, and by virtue of the corroborated ones, are provably wrong. Fanny Mortimer can be used to corroborate Goldstein, but cannot be used to validate what Louis says. If fact her statement invalidates his claim he arrived "precisely" at 1. What she heard after going back inside was a cart and horse, there is nothing on this earth that magically makes that Louis arriving. She didnt see anyone. Any other statements, like who said they were Wess at what time, or what these uncorroborated witnesses claimed..like Israel, are just hearsay and should be evaluated based on any self serving influences said witnesses might have. Like income.

[Wickerman]

You just posted him giving a time Jon. A Rough estimate yes, but a full 20 minutes before Louis says he even arrived. Is it your contention that Issac, who had checked the clock when he arrived back at the club 10 minutes earlier....he knew when he returned.... was off in his estimates by 20 minutes? What about the fact he says Louis sent him out alone? Selective acceptance of statements...or are all the statements of value. 4 match....that's hard to just brush aside with feeble sweeps.

It looks like you don't understand what in "quotes" means Michael.

[drstrange169]

>>.... inside the club, where almost certainly there was a clock. Issac used it to determine when he arrived back at the club.<<

And, presumably, the same clock 30 people knew the alarm was raised at 1:00. Whatever way you cut it, the facts support Diemshitz's time. And it's not just an odd fact here and there, it's the cumulative effect of all the facts.

[drstrange169]

>>What about the fact he says Louis sent him out alone? <<

Like Robert Paul?

[drstrange169]

>>So he couldn't have touched her twice? Seems like a few people may have touched her doc.<<

There you go inventing scenarios again. where did Spooner say he touched twice? Why would he touch her twice? His testimony (fact not invention) is that PC lamb arrived 4 to 5 minutes after he did. Mortimer says she came out after 1:00 and Lamb says he was in Commercial Road at 1:00.So where is the 20 minutes you claim Spooner was at the club?

Spooner says two men told him about the murder. Diemshitz told the inquest he was one of those two men. In post #187 you clearly stated in bold underlined letters " Ive never said Louis and Eagle did not leave until after 1 " So by your own theory Spooner was not alerted until after 1:00 a.m.

[drstrange169]

>> In that first Line Fanny Mortimer can only be used to invalidate Louis's claim he arrived "precisely" at 1, she doesn't confirm anything he said.<<

For someone who has been here so long, you don't seem to have grasped the notion that in the Victorian east end of London people didn't have mobile phones, televisions or radios. There was no such thing as universally synced time. Diemshitz gave the time on the tobacconists clock, Mortimer gave her own time. That they might vary to some degree is normal. What counts is that she did not see or hear the scenario you've invented, but she did hear Deimshitz pass after she went in. Therefore she validities Deimshitz's story. As do all the other sworn statements.

>> James Brown didn't see the street in front of the gates.<<

We don't know that, because he didn't say. What we do know, is that, like Fanny and Letchford's sister should have heard the commotion and they all should have seen Kosebrodski and they should have seen Spooner running around. Instead, Brown conirms these incidents happen 15 minutes later.

>>Among the witnesses you state were singing upstairs, 2 said that they were by Louis and others and the dying woman at 12:40-12:45, 1 who arrived aback at the club at 12:30 said the same. And Spooners estimate also puts him there at that time.<<

Facts, again facts! They were guessing the time. None gave a precise time or indication that they looked at a clock. weighed against speculation are all the other witnesses who weren't re-written by journalists, but stated under oath. Timings that only fit an after 1:00 a.m. scenario.

>>Easy to see why these cases cant be properly evaluated,.... myth, denial and presumptions. <<

Precisely so.

Speculation, tailored to fit personal theories over actual evidence, is the bane of this research.

[drstrange169]

>>A factual Baseline.....4 witnesses say they were by Liz Stride as she is dying at 12:40-12:45. <<

How can it be a fact when they all acknowledge that only guessed the time? Clearly you have difficulty understanding what a fact is.

What IS a fact is that that Diemshitz says he was on a pony and cart driving down Berner Street at 1:00 o'clock according to Harris's timepiece.

What is a fact is that Fanny heard a pony and cart after she closed her door.

What is a fact is that Letchford claimed his sister was at her door at a time you claim chaos reigned at the club.

What is a fact is that Fanny says she heard none of the commotion at a time you speculate choas happening at the club.

What is a fact is that Spooner gave two times, one you constantly and conveniently pretend doesn't exist.

What a fact is that Spooner said PC Lamb arrived very quickly after his arrival.

What is a fact is that Lamb and another PC say they were in Commercial Road at the very least 15 minutes after you claim Spooner arrived.

What is a fact is that Diemshitz says he brought Spooner to the club.

What is fact is that you wrote Diemshitz never left the club until after 1:00.

What is fact is Brown's testimony that he heard no alarm until 15 minutes after he returned home.

What is a fact is that Heshburg says he was alerted by a police whistle and that he only guessed the time.

What is a fact is that all the facts support a 1:00 a.m. scenario and a 12:40 scenario is solely based on supposition.

[Michael W Richards]

Ive read the responses and Ill just say that Im very content with my post #199. You quote Diemshitz and suggests that's some kind of a factual baseline.."

What is a fact is that Diemshitz says he brought Spooner to the club"...All along my contention is that Diemshitz is already provably wrong on his assertion that he arrived "precisely" at 1..his words. So why would I presume he is accurate or truthful in other instances? Its just the documentation...that's all. You can argue that people couldn't tell time, that the club didn't have a clock that all could easily see,..that Fanny didn't have one in her home, that uncorroborated witness evidence is more likely to have been accurate than those from multiple corroborated sources, ...I don't know what the flavor of the day is for rewriting the evidence that is on page from that Investigation. The witness evidence clearly shows that 4 people believed that they were by Louis and the dying woman by 12:45. It also shows that Louis didn't arrive "precisely" at 1, by virtue of Fanny Mortimer at her door. Whistles heard, carts and ponies heard after 1, are not evidence of any one persons presence or usable to identify who or what made the sound. Other than the obvious...someone blew a whistle, someone rode a cart and horse by on the street. Since the source of the sounds isn't seen by anyone.

The suggestion is that the 4 corroborated stories directly contradict the ones given by people directly associated with the club, and receiving housing or income from it. Thereby creating motivation for this crime to be seen as having nothing to do with the club or its members.

You quote Louis saying he brought Spooner back, yet he also says this happened around 1:05. Spooner says he was there with the other men around 12:40. You presume Issac[s] is actually Issac Kozebrodski, yet Issac Kozebrodksi says he went out alone around 12:40-12;45 at the request of Louis who had summoned him to the passageway shortly after he arrived back at the club at 12:30. Issac doesn't say he met Spooner, or anyone else except Eagle on his way back.. Spooner doesn't say he met Louis...he said he met 2 jews from the club. Fanny didn't see Louis just after 1..she heard a cart and horse. No-one saw a policeman use a whistle from inside the club, but at least one heard a whistle. Just one person saw or heard a scuffle with the victim just outside the gates at 12:45, but 4 men saw the dying woman inside the passageway at that time. Eagle couldn't be sure a body wasn't there when he passed at 12:40ish. He didn't see Lave, who was at the gates he passed.

The statements you put faith in are the very same ones that have absolutely no secondhand verification from anyone. And you give me a hard time for pointing that out.

[Abby Normal]

>> In that first Line Fanny Mortimer can only be used to invalidate Louis's claim he arrived "precisely" at 1, she doesn't confirm anything he said.<<

For someone who has been here so long, you don't seem to have grasped the notion that in the Victorian east end of London people didn't have mobile phones, televisions or radios. There was no such thing as universally synced time. Diemshitz gave the time on the tobacconists clock, Mortimer gave her own time. That they might vary to some degree is normal. What counts is that she did not see or hear the scenario you've invented, but she did hear Deimshitz pass after she went in. Therefore she validities Deimshitz's story. As do all the other sworn statements.

>> James Brown didn't see the street in front of the gates.<<

We don't know that, because he didn't say. What we do know, is that, like Fanny and Letchford's sister should have heard the commotion and they all should have seen Kosebrodski and they should have seen Spooner running around. Instead, Brown conirms these incidents happen 15 minutes later.

>>Among the witnesses you state were singing upstairs, 2 said that they were by Louis and others and the dying woman at 12:40-12:45, 1 who arrived aback at the club at 12:30 said the same. And Spooners estimate also puts him there at that time.<<

Facts, again facts! They were guessing the time. None gave a precise time or indication that they looked at a clock. weighed against speculation are all the other witnesses who weren't re-written by journalists, but stated under oath. Timings that only fit an after 1:00 a.m. scenario.

>>Easy to see why these cases cant be properly evaluated,.... myth, denial and presumptions. <<

Precisely so.

Speculation, tailored to fit personal theories over actual evidence, is the bane of this research.

no truer words have been spoken

[drstrange169]

>>You quote Diemshitz and suggests that's some kind of a factual baseline.."
What is a fact is that Diemshitz says he brought Spooner to the club"...<<

Again, you seem to have trouble with the definition of the word "fact". It IS a fact that Diemshitz says he brought Spooner to the club.


>> All along my contention is that Diemshitz is already provably wrong on his assertion that he arrived "precisely" at 1..his words. <<

Except you have NEVER proved Diemshitz's is time is wrong. He says it was the time he saw on Harris's clock. No other witness references Harris clock, so how can you, by definition of the word "provably" prove him wrong? Where is your evidence that Harris clock was synced to any other witnesses time?

As for the rest of your post you've simply avoided explaining why the "facts I've listed are wrong and your personal opinion trumps them.

A classic example, who blew the whistle Heshberg heard and why didn't Fanny, or anybody else, see and hear it?


>> Spooner says he was there with the other men around 12:40.<<

Again, you ignore the fact the he also said he was at the corner of the street at 1:00 a.m. Again, you ignore the fact that he said he didn't know the time and was guessing. I understand people with theories will cherrypick, but that doesn't alter the actual evidence available.


>>You presume Issac[s] is actually Issac Kozebrodski, yet Issac Kozebrodksi says he went out alone around 12:40-12;45<<

Can you quote me where he uses the word alone? No of course you can't. It's your inference, he simply doesn't mention who followed him out. By your logic Kozebrodski is a "proven lair" because, Eagle doesn't mention that Koze was with him when they met the policeman. Omission is not a statement of fact, it is simply an omission. Once again you are cherrypicking what you want and ignoring what contradicts it.


>>Issac doesn't say he met Spooner, or anyone else except Eagle on his way back.<<

And Eagle doesn't say he met anyone when he met the policemen, so bang goes your reasoning credibility.

[Michael W Richards]

1. What Diemshutz says is unproven until such time as it could be substantiated. There are no corroborative accounts. Its is therefore not considered a factual account. It is a fact that he said what he said.
2. Fanny Mortimer directly contradicts Louis's contention that he arrived "precisely at 1". We know she was where she said she was because she saw Leon Goldstein just before 1. Since Louis has no corroborative evidence to support his claim, the verified eye witness account discredits his story.
3. Direct Inquest quote from Spooner.."I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard."
4. Since Issac uses only "I" when describing what happened when he went out for help..."at the request of Diemshutz or some other member"..and since Issac Kozebrodski's account of where he was when is substantiated and verified by multiple eye witness accounts, he left alone around 12:40-12:45. Just like he said. There on the paper. For anyone to read.
5. Eagle was preoccupied with the policeman and may not have noticed Issac joining him, but then again if Issac and multiple other witnesses are correct about the times and events they recalled, then Eagle didn't tell the truth about what he saw at 12:40 when he got back and went into that passageway anyway.

The sources perceived credibility is all there is here. What the cumulative evidence suggests in the question of what time members first gathered around a dying woman in the passageway, its abundantly clear that the vast majority believed that time to be between 12:40-12:45. That's at least 15 minutes earlier than what Louis claimed, and smack on the time Eagle and Lave claimed they was also there. 4 witnesses say they were there, that Louis was there, and 4 corroborated stories vs 1 story unsubstantiated by any other evidence isn't even a fair match. Louis, Eagle and Lave said they were somewhere at a time when 4 other witnesses say a small group of men were already around a dying woman in that same location. They saw nothing..not even each other. Not credible considering the contradictory evidence and its ramifications.

[Wickerman]

Michael, you are clearly in defense mode, you're not listening to reason. you have a position to defend and that is all you are interested in.
Not caring how this makes you look is another matter altogether.