Who Died in Dutfield's Yard?

[drstrange169]

>>Wess wears some different clothing and voila, Smith wouldn't likely have picked him out of a lineup.<<

Sadly, I'm old enough to remember beat Bobbies. They knew the locals. But, more than knowing the locals, the club was not just another house. It was a place police on the beat would have been told to specifically observe. Apart from the radical anarchists, there were regular political rallies and religious disturbances. On top of that, it had been a centre for the Match Girls strike earlier the year. Wess would have been well-known to local police. Had it have been Wess, Smith would almost certainly have known. If the paper parcel he observed had been a bundle of subversive newspapers he would have noted that too, I'm sure.

But, however implausible, let's look at the ramifications of your theory.

If Wess knew he had been seen with Mrs Stride by a policeman, would he be likely to increase his profile as he did? He went to Leman Street police station, voluntarily, to translate for Goldstein, he would have no idea how well Smith might have seen him when he did that. He then went to the newspapers to tell the story, insuring his raised public profile. He invited the press into the club and let them interview him the day after the murder. He attended the inquest. He stayed in the area that was Smith's beat.

Are these the actions of a man in fear of being recognised?

Hardly!

Never say never, but the idea of Wess being the man Smith saw is incredibly unlikely.

[drstrange169]

>>How did the knife end up on the doorstep of Norah Christmas' laundry premise?<<

And why was it put there a day later?

[drstrange169]

>>That is some serious loyalty to a member of the club. Did these men not have wives, mothers, daughters? A woman is brutally murdered and all they thought about was covering the club's collective behind?<<

Not to mention the sheer volume of people who had to be party to a conspiracy and keep that secret until their demises!

[drstrange169]

>>And as far as people linked to the club for their livelihood possibly lying, keep in mind that this was a shabby little club in Whitechapel.<<

And they weren't too worried about losing their livelihood when they went to prison for attacking a policeman a year later.

[Michael W Richards]

Its like they sought to present a story that deflected suspicions from a club attendee...who in this case, was almost certainly the killer.

That is some serious loyalty to a member of the club. Did these men not have wives, mothers, daughters? A woman is brutally murdered and all they thought about was covering the club's collective behind?

c.d.

Hi cd,

A woman is murdered, yes, but I wouldn't categorize this as brutal necessarily. Three women get cut throats that night, in the same area, so really just how rare and brutal is a throat cut in that neighborhood, at that time? It seems to be something that occurs there, fairly regularly. Likely due to the ready availability of that kind of weapon regardless of income levels. Any murder, a violent taking of life, is brutality. But remember, we are not comparing a throat cut with Mary Kellys murder, where brutal is an understatement. Outs of the Canonical context, Liz Strides murder is sadly another murder of an unfortunate in Londons East End during the LVP. Not particularly savage, just a brief one cut encounter. From his grabbing of the scarf to then letting go of it might be 2 seconds. Running the knife across the throat while dropping her.

This murder is much more like Mrs Browns murder that night than it is Kellys. Or Eddowes. It could have been a domestic too. Or just a momentary lapse in self control by virtue of anger.

How valuable do you imagine the club attendees at 12:45 thought that another unfortunate street walker was? I see curiosity as their reaction. Seeing a dead body up close just outside the kitchen door. I would seriously doubt that an idea to present a story that is beneficial to the club would be ignored. After all, no-one in that club claimed to know her, she was a stranger, a woman who rents a bed by the night,... just like hundreds of others. Some sympathy from some, some concern about how this will look to the authorities, you have to consider that all types of perspectives were there that night. Pretending that all were centered around getting this poor woman help immediately without any thought for their own representation in this affair is perhaps altruistic, but rather unlikely.

[Michael W Richards]

>>Wess wears some different clothing and voila, Smith wouldn't likely have picked him out of a lineup.<<

Sadly, I'm old enough to remember beat Bobbies. They knew the locals. But, more than knowing the locals, the club was not just another house. It was a place police on the beat would have been told to specifically observe. Apart from the radical anarchists, there were regular political rallies and religious disturbances. On top of that, it had been a centre for the Match Girls strike earlier the year. Wess would have been well-known to local police. Had it have been Wess, Smith would almost certainly have known. If the paper parcel he observed had been a bundle of subversive newspapers he would have noted that too, I'm sure.

But, however implausible, let's look at the ramifications of your theory.

If Wess knew he had been seen with Mrs Stride by a policeman, would he be likely to increase his profile as he did? He went to Leman Street police station, voluntarily, to translate for Goldstein, he would have no idea how well Smith might have seen him when he did that. He then went to the newspapers to tell the story, insuring his raised public profile. He invited the press into the club and let them interview him the day after the murder. He attended the inquest. He stayed in the area that was Smith's beat.

Are these the actions of a man in fear of being recognised?

Hardly!

Never say never, but the idea of Wess being the man Smith saw is incredibly unlikely.

I think its entirely possible that Wess believed he could not be recognized, that he felt that the copper didn't get a really good look. And the policeman didn't identify this as someone he has seen around the area, he just gave a general top to toe description. As I said, change of clothes, venue, glasses, different hat, and he would be virtually as bland to Smith as the man he saw that night. He paid attention to Stride, the flower arrangement, and the parcel, but glanced at the man. Maybe his attending Goldstein was more than just as a translator, maybe he was being sure the story was presented favorably towards the club. Like Schwartzs.

[Michael W Richards]

>>That is some serious loyalty to a member of the club. Did these men not have wives, mothers, daughters? A woman is brutally murdered and all they thought about was covering the club's collective behind?<<

Not to mention the sheer volume of people who had to be party to a conspiracy and keep that secret until their demises!

Thing is, there are not large numbers who are telling stories that cannot be verified. Only the club members with the most to lose if the club was believed to house the killer. The ones who are there for the entertainment didn't conspire at all...the majority of those all said the same thing...that they were by the dead/dying woman at 12:40-12:45. With Louis and others.

[Michael W Richards]

On Wess and Goldstein....don't underestimate just how critical Goldsteins story is. When you consider that 4 witnesses state that they were in that passageway with others between 12:40 and 12:45, Louis included, and when we have Fanny state that Goldstein looks into the passageway, after the earliest cut time estimate, what he sees or doesn't see is important. The translated version of his story says he saw nothing. And it seems that Wess translated. the man who may, or may not, have been seen talking with the victim at 12:35. And who never mentioned it. Where had all the men that saw other men by the body at 12:40-45 gone when Goldstein passes at around 12:55? Is Liz cut and lying there then? Where is her killer...he didn't leave between 12:50 and 1...Fanny also noted that.

Wess. Diemshutz. Eagle. Lave. Worked there, was club steward, passed the murder spot at 12:40, lived in a cottage in the passageway. NONE of these men had any corroboration for their stories. Not one. All had something to do with that specific address, for most, where they made money.

Israel Schwartz. Not important enough to be listed as an Inquest evidence provider, but so important to advancing the impression that not only was no-one in the club involved, but that it started out on the street. Oh yeah, absolutely no-one saw or heard any of Israels story either. And its possible Wess translated for him too.

[Trevor Marriott]

On Wess and Goldstein....don't underestimate just how critical Goldsteins story is. When you consider that 4 witnesses state that they were in that passageway with others between 12:40 and 12:45, Louis included, and when we have Fanny state that Goldstein looks into the passageway, after the earliest cut time estimate, what he sees or doesn't see is important. The translated version of his story says he saw nothing. And it seems that Wess translated. the man who may, or may not, have been seen talking with the victim at 12:35. And who never mentioned it. Where had all the men that saw other men by the body at 12:40-45 gone when Goldstein passes at around 12:55? Is Liz cut and lying there then? Where is her killer...he didn't leave between 12:50 and 1...Fanny also noted that.

Wess. Diemshutz. Eagle. Lave. Worked there, was club steward, passed the murder spot at 12:40, lived in a cottage in the passageway. NONE of these men had any corroboration for their stories. Not one. All had something to do with that specific address, for most, where they made money.

Israel Schwartz. Not important enough to be listed as an Inquest evidence provider, but so important to advancing the impression that not only was no-one in the club involved, but that it started out on the street. Oh yeah, absolutely no-one saw or heard any of Israels story either. And its possible Wess translated for him too.

I wonder if Kidney was ever asked to account for his movements that night ?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Wickerman]

..... And its possible Wess translated for him too.

No, we've been over that. Wess didn't know who the pursuer (in Fairclough st.), or the pursued man was, so clearly he had not translated Schwartz's story for him.

[Michael W Richards]

No, we've been over that. Wess didn't know who the pursuer (in Fairclough st.), or the pursued man was, so clearly he had not translated Schwartz's story for him.

Been over what Jon?

Here is Wess in the Inquest..."

"William Wess [West], who affirmed instead of being sworn, was the first witness examined, and, in reply to the coroner, he said: I reside at No. 2, William-street, Cannon-street-road, and am overseer in the printing office attached to No. 40, Berner-street, Commercial-road, which premises are in the occupation of the International Working Men's Education Society, whose club is carried on there. On the ground floor of the club is a room, the door and window of which face the street. At the rear of this is the kitchen, whilst the first floor consists of a large room which is used for our meetings and entertainments, I being a member of the club. At the south side of the premises is a courtyard, to which entrance can be obtained through a double door, in one section of which is a smaller one, which is used when the larger barriers are closed. The large doors are generally closed at night, but sometimes remain open. On the left side of the yard is a house, which is divided into three tenements, and occupied, I believe, by that number of families. At the end is a store or workshop belonging to Messrs. Hindley and Co., sack manufacturers. I do not know that a way out exists there. The club premises and the printing-office occupy the entire length of the yard on the right side. Returning to the club-house, the front room on the ground floor is used for meals. In the kitchen is a window which faces the door opening into the yard. The intervening passage is illuminated by means of a fanlight over the door. The printing-office, which does not communicate with the club, consists of two rooms, one for compositors and the other for the editor. On Saturday the compositors finished their labours at two o'clock in the afternoon. The editor concluded earlier, but remained at the place until the discovery of the murder.
[Coroner] How many members are there in the club? - From seventy-five to eighty. Working men of any nationality can join.
[Coroner] Is any political qualification required of members? - It is a political - a Socialist - club.
[Coroner] Do the members have to agree with any particular principles? - A candidate is proposed by one member and seconded by another, and a member would not nominate a candidate unless he knew that he was a supporter of Socialist principles. On Saturday last I was in the printing-office during the day and in the club during the evening. From nine to half-past ten at night I was away seeing an English friend home, but I was in the club again till a quarter-past midnight. A discussion was proceeding in the lecture-room, which has three windows overlooking the courtyard. From ninety to 100 persons attended the discussion, which terminated soon after half-past eleven, when the bulk of the members left, using the street door, the most convenient exit. From twenty to thirty members remained, some staying in the lecture-room and the others going downstairs. Of those upstairs a few continued the discussion, while the rest were singing. The windows of the lecture-room were partly open.
[Coroner] How do you know that you finally left at a quarter-past twelve o'clock? - Because of the time when I reached my lodgings. Before leaving I went into the yard, and thence to the printing-office, in order to leave some literature there, and on returning to the yard I observed that the double door at the entrance was open. There is no lamp in the yard, and none of the street lamps light it, so that the yard is only lit by the lights through the windows at the side of the club and of the tenements opposite. As to the tenements, I only observed lights in two first-floor windows. There was also a light in the printing- office, the editor being in his room reading.
[Coroner] Was there much noise in the club? - Not exactly much noise; but I could hear the singing when I was in the yard.
[Coroner] Did you look towards the yard gates? - Not so much to the gates as to the ground, but nothing unusual attracted my attention.
[Coroner] Can you say that there was no object on the ground? - I could not say that.
[Coroner] Do you think it possible that anything can have been there without your observing it? - It was dark, and I am a little shortsighted, so that it is possible. The distance from the gates to the kitchen door is 18 ft.
[Coroner] What made you look towards the gates at all? - Simply because they were open. I went into the club, and called my brother, and we left together by the front door.
[Coroner] On leaving did you see anybody as you passed the yard? - No.
[Coroner] Or did you meet any one in the street? - Not that I recollect. I generally go home between twelve and one o'clock.
[Coroner] Do low women frequent Berner-street? - I have seen men and women standing about and talking to each other in Fairclough-street.
[Coroner] But have you observed them nearer the club? - No.
[Coroner] Or in the club yard? - I did once, at eleven o'clock at night, about a year ago. They were chatting near the gates. That is the only time I have noticed such a thing, nor have I heard of it."

So when does Wess get asked about the people that Schwartz claims he saw?

[c.d.]

I wonder if Kidney was ever asked to account for his movements that night ?

I would have to say yes unless the police at the time were complete and total idiots.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Been over what Jon?
.
.

So when does Wess get asked about the people that Schwartz claims he saw?

I took it you believed this story was Schwartz being chased by Pipeman?
William Wess was the club Secretary, wasn't he

"In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the two latter running up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made [?] [?] [?] there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be [?] from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation. There is, notwithstanding the number who have visited the scene, a complete absence of excitement, although naturally this fresh addition to the already formidable list of mysterious murders forms the general subject of conversation."
Echo, 1 Oct. 1888.

If you are correct, then Wess was not the interpreter.

[drstrange169]

>>I think its entirely possible that Wess believed he could not be recognized, that he felt that the copper didn't get a really good look.<<

And exactly how would the person Smith saw know whether Smith would or would not recognise him again? And how many guilty people would take that chance, if they knew they were bound to see Smith again? No, I'm sorry we'll have to disagree on this, human nature doesn't work that way.

[drstrange169]

>>A woman is murdered, yes, but I wouldn't categorize this as brutal necessarily. Three women get cut throats that night, in the same area, so really just how rare and brutal is a throat cut in that neighborhood, at that time? It seems to be something that occurs there, fairly regularly.<<

It's definitely a point worth consideration and can't be dismissed, but when you consider how many were murdered outside as opposed in inside, how many were prostitutes ( part time or full ) and how many were committed by an unknown assailant, Mrs Stride murder is back to being uncommon.