Who Died in Dutfield's Yard?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

the point is, the only one claiming any similar details between stride and Stokes is Malcolm.

Kattrup,
wondering if you have thoughts on any of the following...

How do you suppose Malcolm and Kidney came to know of the death, respectively?

Do you have any ideas about why MM & MK may have crossed paths on the Monday, other than coincidental timing?

Do you suppose that the information exchanged at the meeting, was the impetus for Kidney asking for a 'strange, young detective'.

Do you believe some of the stuff Liz Stride told Kidney, such as having 9 children and the story about the Princess Alice disaster?

At 5'5", was Liz Stride actually 'long', or was it Liz Watts/Stokes who was the tall one of the two?

Mary Malcolm claimed her sister was 37, and Kidney believed Stride to be 36-38. Who had 'borrowed' who's date of birth?

The Irish Times quotes Malcolm saying:

I last saw the deceased alive on Thursday last at a quarter to 7 in the evening.
...
She was 37 on the 27th of last month.

Apparently Mary saw her sister on her birthday.

Charles Preston:

[T] I last saw her alive on Saturday evening, between 6 and 7 o'clock. At that time she was in the kitchen of the lodginghouse and was dressed ready to go out. She asked me for the loan of a clothes-brush. At that time she had on a black jacket trimmed with fur, and it is the same one I have seen in the mortuary. She wore a coloured striped silk handkerchief round her neck, and it was the same as I saw in the mortuary. I have not seen her with a pocket-handkerchief, and am unable to say if she had two.
[DT] ...but no flowers in the breast.

Dr Phillips autopsy:

[DN] stomach ... contained partly digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous edibles...

Did Liz Stride go to her own 'birthday' dinner party, on the Saturday night?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

There is a section in the Daily News, Oct 3, that seems worth a read:

The Central News states that it obtained information yesterday afternoon respecting the antecedents of the woman murdered in Berner-street, which throws very grave doubt upon the evidence of Mrs. Manson [Malcolm], who at the inquest said that she had seen the body, and identified it as that of her sister. There is, it is urged, every reason to believe that Mrs. Manson, who at first was not at all certain in the identification, is really mistaken, and that her sister will sooner or latter be found alive and well. An old artilleryman, who had lived for the past three years with Eliza Stride-otherwise known as "Long Liz"-averred yesterday afternoon that he has identified Stride's body at the mortuary without any difficulty. She was, according to his statement, last seen alive on Saturday night at 32, Flower and Dean-street, between six and seven o'clock, when she was in good health. She was of cleanly habits, and had apparently been well educated in her own language-Swedish. She could cook and keep house well, and was expert in the use of the sewing machine, knitting, and all kinds of needlework. The man first became acquainted with her about three years ago when he met her in Commercial-street, and he had lived with her ever since, except during occasional intervals, when she went away to work for some Jews. He lived with her at 35 Devonshire-street down to five months ago, when they moved to No. 36 in the same street. She was quiet and industrious, but was sometimes the worse for drink. Her manner was peculiar. At times she would say that she was going out for half an hour, and would absent herself for two or three days. Before her marriage she was a domestic servant near Hyde-park, and afterwards she and her husband kept a coffee-shop and boarding-house in Crisp-street, Poplar. She lost her husband in the Princess Alice disaster, as well as two children, one of whom was drowned in the father's arms. She herself escaped by climbing up a rope as the vessel was sinking. A man who had got upon the rope before her slipped and kicked her accidentally in the mouth, knocking out her front teeth. Her husband, who was a ship's carpenter, did a good deal of work in the building of the Great Eastern steamship, and the woman herself put the cushions and fittings in their proper places after the vessel was launched. When she became a widow she sold the coffee-shop and went to live in Cannon-street-road. She used to say that she was the mother of nine children. She frequently attended the Swedish church in Princes-street. The man with whom she afterwards lived believes that her surviving children are being brought up in the country at a school connected with the Swedish church. The woman had no relatives in England, but she said that she had a brother-in-law practicing as a surgeon in Kent. She had spoken of a sister residing about three miles from Stockholm. It is understood that the police are in communication with the brother-in-law.

The 'old artilleryman' - Michael Kidney - states that she was 'last seen alive on Saturday night at 32, Flower and Dean-street, between six and seven o'clock, when she was in good health.'
Not sure if this is significant, but how does Kidney know this at this stage?
He said to Baxter that he had last seen stride the previous Tuesday (Sep 25).

[Coroner] When did you last see her?
[Kidney] On the Tuesday, and I then left her on friendly terms in Commercial- street. That was between nine and ten o'clock at night, as I was coming from work.
[Coroner] Did you expect her home?
[Kidney] I expected her home half an hour afterwards. I subsequently ascertained that she had been in and had gone out again, and I did not see her again alive.

The inquest testimonies of Tanner, Lane and Preston, occur on Oct 3, the same day Kidney testifies.
However, the CN information above, was obtained 'yesterday afternoon' - today's edition being Oct 3 - and Kidney 'averred yesterday afternoon that he has identified Stride's body at the mortuary without any difficulty', regarding his visit to the mortuary the day prior.
Thomas Bates apparently sees Stride arriving at the Flower and Dean street lodging house on the Tuesday evening, so if Kidney ascertains that Stride had been in and gone out again, after seeing her between 9 and 10 pm, then Bates must have been aware of her arrival after that time.

Also worth considering what Kidney says about Stride's work skills - She could cook and keep house well, and was expert in the use of the sewing machine, knitting, and all kinds of needlework.
And that at occasional intervals, she 'she went away to work for some Jews'.

On her person was found:

[Dr Phillips] I found in the pocket of the underskirt of the deceased a key as of a padlock, a small piece of lead pencil, a comb, and a broken piece of comb, a metal spoon, half-a-dozen large and one small button, and a hook, as if off a dress, a piece of muslin, and one or two small pieces of paper.

[DI Reid] In her jacket pocket were two handkerchiefs, a thimble, and a piece of wool on a card.

Quite possibly, Stride was killed at her place of casual work.

[Kattrup]

Kattrup,
wondering if you have thoughts on any of the following...

How do you suppose Malcolm and Kidney came to know of the death, respectively?

Kidney probably heard of it from rumours and talk in the East End. In papers dated October 1st her name was mentioned, that is, already Sunday evening/night it was believed to be her and a reporter actually visited the lodging house at 11 o'clock Sunday evening, it seems. So it was not unknown that it was believed to be Stride.
Malcolm we cannot at present know how she heard, since we do not at present know why she said what she said. In her own statement, she says that owing to her sister missing their fixed appointment on Saturday, she was concerned for her. When she heard a woman had been murdered, she approached a police officer and described her sister to him. She was then admitted to the mortuary to make the id, which she failed to do, but returning Monday she did.

Do you have any ideas about why MM & MK may have crossed paths on the Monday, other than coincidental timing?

The most likely answer is that they both attended the inquest, which commenced Monday.

Do you suppose that the information exchanged at the meeting, was the impetus for Kidney asking for a 'strange, young detective'.

No, since I do not believe there was a meeting, so no information was exchanged. Kidney just says that he saw Malcolm, not that they spoke or anything. Probably they were both at the inquest and he saw her there

Do you believe some of the stuff Liz Stride told Kidney, such as having 9 children and the story about the Princess Alice disaster?

No. About the children, no record of childbirth has been found, as far as I know, neither in the UK nor in Sweden, which is perhaps somewhat unusual in that she did live with Stride for years. About the Princess Alice, no record of her there has been found and we know for a fact that her husband did not drown, but lived for several years afterwards.

At 5'5", was Liz Stride actually 'long', or was it Liz Watts/Stokes who was the tall one of the two?

I do not know which was taller, nor do I know if her nickname was a reference to her height. It appears you assume it was?

Mary Malcolm claimed her sister was 37, and Kidney believed Stride to be 36-38. Who had 'borrowed' who's date of birth?

Most people who saw Stride believed her to be younger than she was, I think. Stride was born 1843, aI don't know when Stokes was born but Mary Malcolm was born 1842 and Elizabeth her sister was younger, putting her sometime around 1845 maybe? In the census for 1891 she's listed as 49 which would mean born 1842, but those are of course unreliable. Debra Arif has her census records, I believe. But it seems Malcolm was not actually giving her sister's real age, which would have been 40+, perhaps again indicating that she was merely repeating information about Stride (i.e. her perceived age) that she'd heard.

The Irish Times quotes Malcolm saying:

I last saw the deceased alive on Thursday last at a quarter to 7 in the evening.
...
She was 37 on the 27th of last month.

Apparently Mary saw her sister on her birthday.

ok

Charles Preston:

[T] I last saw her alive on Saturday evening, between 6 and 7 o'clock. At that time she was in the kitchen of the lodginghouse and was dressed ready to go out. She asked me for the loan of a clothes-brush. At that time she had on a black jacket trimmed with fur, and it is the same one I have seen in the mortuary. She wore a coloured striped silk handkerchief round her neck, and it was the same as I saw in the mortuary. I have not seen her with a pocket-handkerchief, and am unable to say if she had two.
[DT] ...but no flowers in the breast.

Dr Phillips autopsy:

[DN] stomach ... contained partly digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous edibles...

Did Liz Stride go to her own 'birthday' dinner party, on the Saturday night?

No, she did not. Birthday dinner parties are generally a later invention.

[Kattrup]

Unless Elizabeth Watts was fluent in Swedish, I'd say the problem's probably solved.

Absolutely, assuming there was a problem in the first place. Elizabeth Stride was identified by lots of people who knew her, there's no doubt she was the victim.

[Kattrup]

I don't see how arriving at a conclusion that Malcolm lied is warranted. How do we know that the person who has been identified as Elizabeth Stride nee Gustavsdotter from Goteborg is this victim? There are differences in these stories Kattrup, its not a done deal that MM lied at all.

I don't think I've said that she lied - but let's keep in mind that she did identify the victim as her sister, who then turned up alive and (somewhat) well. So she's definitely untrustworthy. As she says: "She could not answer all the questions put by the coroner because she was so upset, her memory failed her, but they had come into her mind since - she had reasons for not wishing to answer others." Sounds rather scam-like, "ooh I couldn't think of good answers yesterday but now I have!" She then proceeds to tell a story of how her sister was stabbed by her second husband who then flees to NZ, shipwrecking on the way.

So Malcolm may have been confused, mentally ill or deceived. She may also have lied - and for what? To gain attention, to attempt some scam of sympathy, perhaps, or in order to get money for paper interviews.
Perhaps she told the truth as best she knew it, but she got confused about what she'd heard about Stride from someone.

How do we know Stride was the victim? Because she was identified be several people who know her personally over a long period of time.

[Michael W Richards]

I suppose for me this puts into question whether the woman they identified was indeed Elizabeth Gustavsdotter from Goteborg Sweden, as this victim has been identified from past research, which was posted here years back. That Elizabeth Stride was far older than the woman who was identified in the morgue, for one. The issue with the palate and the missing teeth. I do agree with one thing NotBlamed said, I do think she was there because she was working that night. I also believe its likely she arrived at that time because it was likely the meeting would have been over for a bit and most people had left. That was the case at that time, a meeting of over 200 people was now just 20-30 socialists singing upstairs.

I haven't formed an opinion on what these facts Simon has posted create as a bigger picture yet, Im just trying to isolate a few incongruities at a time and makes sense of them. Isolate....now theres a word that has been used a lot lately. Be well.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Kattrup,
thanks for answers.

There is more detail about Stride's identification, in the Oct 1 papers, than I'd realized.
Some of it quite interesting...

[IT] The woman murdered in Berner street has been identified. There appears to be very little doubt as to this as the belief was current in all parts of the neighbourhood, and a woman who is known as "One Armed Liz," living in a common lodginghouse in Flower and Dean street, stated to a reporter that she had accompanied Sergeant Thicke to St George's mortuary, and had identified the body as that of Annie Stride, an unfortunate, living in a common lodginghouse in the neighbourhood of Flower and Dean street. "One Armed Liz" refused to give further information, as she said she had been instructed to keep the matter to herself. Another rumour was to the effect that the deceased was a Swede and had evidently lived in this country for some years, judging by the fluency with which she spoke the English language. Another telegram states that the woman murdered in Berner street has been identified as Elizabeth Stride, who, it seems, had been leading a gay life, and had resided latterly in Flower and Dean street. She was identified by a sister living in Holborn. Her husband, who resides at Bath, has lived apart from her for nearly five years. Up to 10 o'clock to-night Stride's murderer has not been disclosed.

[T] Late last night the woman murdered in Berner-street was identified by a sister as Elizabeth Stride, who, it seems, had resided latterly in Flower and Dean-street. A correspondent, when he was shown the body of the deceased, recognized her by the name of Annie Fitzgerald as having been charged and convicted a great number of times at the Thames Police-court of drunkenness.

[EN] Files of people were allowed to pass through the mortuary, yesterday, in the hope that some clue would be obtained of the woman's identity. It was late in the afternoon, however, before any one was able to say they knew her. Eventually she was identified as Elizabeth Stride, familiarly known as Long Lizzie, who had been living at a common lodging-house, No. 32, Flower and Dean-street and who plied her painful trade in the neighbourhood. She is said to have a sister in Holborn. She was a married woman separated from her husband, who resides in Bath.


If Kidney went to the inquest on a day he wasn't due to appear, would he lose that day's pay?

If Kidney did not meet Malcolm on the Monday, but only looked at her, how would he have known who she was?
And not talking to MM leaves open the question as to why MK wants his own detective.

I'm not sure about the nickname, as I'm not sure who 'borrowed' from the others identity.

Birthday dinner parties are generally a later invention.

Okay, but what if I was being a bit too literal?
Not a birthday dinner party, in the more modern sense, but a dinner nonetheless, at which they may toast Liz if they do believe it is her birthday.
She dressed to go out, and appears to have eaten a hearty meal when she does.
Some of the comments about her, prior to leaving the lodging house that evening, are interesting...

[E - owing to Thomas Bates at the lodging house] She returned to the house on Tuesday last, after a somewhat prolonged absence, and remained there until Saturday night. That evening she went out about seven o'clock, when she appeared to be in the most cheery spirits, and in excellent health.

[IT] She left Flower and Dean street between 6 and 7 o'clock on Saturday night. She then said she was not going to meet anyone in particular.

Then there is the fascinating witnessing of Stride and Pub Man (to coin a moniker), at the Bricklayer's Arms.

Do you suppose Pub Man might have been someone in particular?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don't think I've said that she lied - but let's keep in mind that she did identify the victim as her sister, who then turned up alive and (somewhat) well. So she's definitely untrustworthy. As she says: "She could not answer all the questions put by the coroner because she was so upset, her memory failed her, but they had come into her mind since - she had reasons for not wishing to answer others." Sounds rather scam-like, "ooh I couldn't think of good answers yesterday but now I have!" She then proceeds to tell a story of how her sister was stabbed by her second husband who then flees to NZ, shipwrecking on the way.

So Malcolm may have been confused, mentally ill or deceived. She may also have lied - and for what? To gain attention, to attempt some scam of sympathy, perhaps, or in order to get money for paper interviews.
Perhaps she told the truth as best she knew it, but she got confused about what she'd heard about Stride from someone.

How do we know Stride was the victim? Because she was identified be several people who know her personally over a long period of time.

I think it 95% likely that Stride was the victim.

However, I'm not sure at this stage as to what sort of identity theft or scamming may have occurred.
Regardless, it would seem the following is something MM has made up...

She used to come to me every Saturday, and I always gave her 2s.
The CORONER. - Did she come last Saturday?
Witness. - No; her visit on Thursday was an unusual one. Before that she had not missed a Saturday for between two and three years. She always came at 4 o'clock in the afternoon, and we used to meet at the corner of Chancery-lane. On Saturday afternoon I went there at half-past 3 and remained there until 5, but deceased did not turn up. On Sunday morning, when I read the paper, I wondered whether it was my sister. I had a presentiment that it was. I then went to Whitechapel and spoke to a policeman about my sister. I afterwards went to the St. George's mortuary. When I first saw the body I did not at first recognize it, as I only saw it by gas light; but the next day I recognized it.
The CORONER. - Did not you have some special presentiment about your sister?
Witness. - About 1:20 a.m. on Sunday morning I was lying on my bed when I felt a kind of pressure on my breast, and then I felt three kisses on my cheek. I also heard the kisses, and they were quite distinct.

Did the double event murders make it into any Sunday morning papers?

If MM's presentiment is a fabrication, how did she come to suspect the death of her sister?

Was the choice of St. George's mortuary, a 'lucky' guess?

Someone seems to have given MM the tip.

One of the employers of 'Tall Lisa', perhaps?

[packers stem]

It's my belief that JTR was arrested post double event. Reading Bruce Robinson's take on the Packer business is that the timings of selling the grapes were adjusted by Swanson to devalue him as witness and it was SY who hired the two private detectives not the Vigilante committee.

Any funny business with the Stride murder and the double event revolves around the top met boys discovering JTR's identity following his arrest at this time and deciding to protect him from this point onwards.

Both Packer and Hutchinson are reported in the press to have been ignored initially by the police. Coincidence?

Martyn

Hi Martyn
It was A C Bruce who wrote off Packer as a fool to the blind by moving the times ..... not the only occasion times shifted during the investigation

Where the red fruit stains on Stride's handkerchief came from , the ones that Phillips didn't spot the first time, is anyone's guess but it will be any red fruit you can conjure up other than black grape skins ..... it will never be from black grape skin

[drstrange169]

I'm confused. If the deceased was Elizabeth Watts, how did she speak Swedish? Why did she visit Olsen for 17 years and how did she re-animate herself to appear at the inquest as Elizabeth Stokes? If Elizabeth Stride was alive why didn't she say so?

[Kattrup]

I'm confused. If the deceased was Elizabeth Watts, how did she speak Swedish? Why did she visit Olsen for 17 years and how did she re-animate herself to appear at the inquest as Elizabeth Stokes? If Elizabeth Stride was alive why didn't she say so?

I don’t think anyone really understands that alternate version. Apparently Preston, lane, kidney, Tanner and Ollsen all decided to identify someone else as Stride. Or there were two bodies - not because they saw two bodies but they “referenced” different bodies.
And what Elizabeth Stride the cousin, which Simon Wood started out with, has to do with anything is still not explained. Yet these “hints” are apparently “fascinating”.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don’t think anyone really understands that alternate version. Apparently Preston, lane, kidney, Tanner and Ollsen all decided to identify someone else as Stride. Or there were two bodies - not because they saw two bodies but they “referenced” different bodies.

It very likely was Liz Stride.

There's just a couple of small issues, though...

From the Irish Times, and London Times, Oct 1...

Another telegram states that the woman murdered in Berner street has been identified as Elizabeth Stride, who, it seems, had been leading a gay life, and had resided latterly in Flower and Dean street. She was identified by a sister living in Holborn.

Late last night the woman murdered in Berner-street was identified by a sister as Elizabeth Stride...

How does Mary Malcolm know the name?


[MA] A woman who is known as "One Armed Liz," living in a common lodging house in Flower and Dean street, informed a representative of the Press that she accompanied Sergeant Thicke to St. George's mortuary and had identified the body as that of Annie Morris, an unfortunate, living in a common lodging house in the neighbourhood of Flower and Dean street. "One Armed Liz" refused to give further information, as she said she had been instructed to keep the matter to herself.

Why 'Annie Morris'?

Kidney: She told me that a policeman used to court her when she was at Hyde Park, before she was married to Stride. Stride and the policeman courted her at the same time, but I never heard of her having a child by the policeman.

Any chance the policeman's name was Morris?

[Kattrup]

It very likely was Liz Stride.

There's just a couple of small issues, though...

From the Irish Times, and London Times, Oct 1...

Another telegram states that the woman murdered in Berner street has been identified as Elizabeth Stride, who, it seems, had been leading a gay life, and had resided latterly in Flower and Dean street. She was identified by a sister living in Holborn.

Late last night the woman murdered in Berner-street was identified by a sister as Elizabeth Stride...

How does Mary Malcolm know the name?


[MA] A woman who is known as "One Armed Liz," living in a common lodging house in Flower and Dean street, informed a representative of the Press that she accompanied Sergeant Thicke to St. George's mortuary and had identified the body as that of Annie Morris, an unfortunate, living in a common lodging house in the neighbourhood of Flower and Dean street. "One Armed Liz" refused to give further information, as she said she had been instructed to keep the matter to herself.

Why 'Annie Morris'?

Kidney: She told me that a policeman used to court her when she was at Hyde Park, before she was married to Stride. Stride and the policeman courted her at the same time, but I never heard of her having a child by the policeman.

Any chance the policeman's name was Morris?

Why Annie Morris? Why not Annie Fitzgerald?

Late last night the woman murdered in Berner-street was identified by a sister as Elizabeth Stride, who, it seems, had resided latterly in Flower and Dean-street. A correspondent, when he was shown the body of the deceased, recognized her by the name of Annie Fitzgerald as having been charged and convicted a great number of times at the Thames Police-court of drunkenness.

No, besides the statistical fact that some policemen were named Morris so any random policeman has a chance of being a Morris.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Why Annie Morris? Why not Annie Fitzgerald?

Flip of a coin on the last name (and one could be an error), and same first name.

This should be enough extra evidence to suggest we should be talking 'Annie Morris'...

The Identification of Liz Stride:At a late hour last night...A female known as "One-armed Liz"...is said to have accompanied Sergeant Thick to St. George's Mortuary, and recognised the body as that of Annie Morris.

No, besides the statistical fact that some policemen were named Morris so any random policeman has a chance of being a Morris.

So you want to burn information?

Kidney tells us there was a relationship with a policeman, which apparently continued even after the relationship with J.T. Stride began.

Stride also seems to have been known as Annie Morris, so it is not random to suppose that this pseudonym originated from the policeman relationship.

Maybe the policeman was George Morris?

Why else would Johnny Upright want One-armed Liz to keep her mouth shut?

[Kattrup]

Flip of a coin on the last name (and one could be an error), and same first name.

This should be enough extra evidence to suggest we should be talking 'Annie Morris'...

The Identification of Liz Stride:At a late hour last night...A female known as "One-armed Liz"...is said to have accompanied Sergeant Thick to St. George's Mortuary, and recognised the body as that of Annie Morris.



So you want to burn information?

Kidney tells us there was a relationship with a policeman, which apparently continued even after the relationship with J.T. Stride began.

Stride also seems to have been known as Annie Morris, so it is not random to suppose that this pseudonym originated from the policeman relationship.

Maybe the policeman was George Morris?

Why else would Johnny Upright want One-armed Liz to keep her mouth shut?

I don’t understand....my point was just that there are at least two early reports of her being identified by someone as Annie X. So there’s no particular reason to prefer the Morris surname to the Fitzgerald surname. So you should asking also “could the policeman have been named Fitzgerald?”