Who Died in Dutfield's Yard?

[Joshua Rogan]

Elizabeth Tanner: I recognise the features as those of a woman who has lodged at 32 off and on for the last six years, and who was known as "Long Liz." I do not know her right name. She used to tell me that she was a Swedish woman......
The deceased was the only one of the name of "Long Liz" who has ever stopped at my lodging-house

Catherine Lane: I have seen the body in the mortuary and recognise it as "Long Liz," who sometimes came to the lodging house. I have known her for 6 or 7 months. I spoke to her on Thursday last, when she said she had had a few words with the man she was living with, and had left him....
I have heard her say that she was a Swede, and that at one time she lived in Devonshire-street.

Charles Preston: I identified the deceased as "Long Liz" on Sunday evening. I am quite sure it is "Long Liz," who lodged at my present address.....
She has told me that she was a Swede, and came to England in a foreign gentleman's service

[mpriestnall]

Hi, NBFN,

I couldn't possibly say.

However, it strikes me that something odd took place in Dutfield's Yard, something that had nothing whatsoever to do with the "Ripper" murders.

But we knew that already.

Regards,

Simon

It's my belief that JTR was arrested post double event. Reading Bruce Robinson's take on the Packer business is that the timings of selling the grapes were adjusted by Swanson to devalue him as witness and it was SY who hired the two private detectives not the Vigilante committee.

Any funny business with the Stride murder and the double event revolves around the top met boys discovering JTR's identity following his arrest at this time and deciding to protect him from this point onwards.

Both Packer and Hutchinson are reported in the press to have been ignored initially by the police. Coincidence?

Martyn

[Kattrup]

The "facts" seem to cross pollinate both stories, from those who knew Elizabeth Stride...the one we have identified as Elizabeth Gustavsdotter from Goteborg, to Mary Malcolm and her sisters history. Both have the policeman connections in the past, both have the Poplar backgrounds.

do they? MM’s sister had three husbands, none of whom was police, as far as I know (wine merchant, seaman/Royal Navy, bricklayer) and she resided in places like Bath, Peckham, Tottenham. “ I never lived in Commercial road nor kept a coffee house at Poplar” she said.

What has happened is rather that MM used garbled details from Stride’s life when describing her sister. That is why so many details seem similar. The coroner, in summing up, mentions a lot of details which many seem to accept as true. But it is important to note that he qualifies the list “If her evidence was correct, there were points of resemblance between the deceased and Elizabeth Watts which almost reminded one of the Comedy of Errors.” (my bold).

why would and how could MM know what she did? we don’t know for sure and until further sources surface, we cannot know.
She was a ghoulish attention seeker or she was mentally ill could be the why, the how could be from talking to people, either before or during the inquest, or perhaps details of Stride’s life were mentioned by the press.
Another theory is that Stride was scamming MM, posing as MM’s sister in order to receive alms. Against that speaks Stride’s accent, which according to Lane and Ollsen was noticeable, according to Tanner however she spoke English like an Englishwoman. A scam like that would explain the coincidence of Liz MM’s “sister” asking for help for lodging and Stride going to the lodging house same evening. So the person MM though was her sister was actually Stride, which explains why her description of the sister sounds like Stride.
Interesting theory, at least it has a lot more going for it than Simon Wood’s odd theory of...something quite uncertain involving witnesses referencing different bodies.

I wondered whether "Long Liz" was ever used to identify the woman we believe is Elizabeth Gustavsdotter.

No need to wonder, as the witnesses speak it plainly: “She was known by the nick-name of "Long Liz." and “Did you recognise it? - Yes, as the body of Long Liz”

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Kattrup,

A meeting is a coming together of two or more people, by chance or arrangement.

[Malcolm] I have seen the body at the mortuary. I saw it once on Sunday and twice yesterday [Monday].

[Kidney] At Leman-street Police-station, on Monday night, I asked for a detective to give information to get the man.

[Kidney] On Monday I saw Mrs. Malcolm, who said the deceased was her sister. She is very like the deceased.

I do not know whether they met at the mortuary or Leman Street police station

Regards,

Simon

We get a more specific idea of what Michael Kidney meant by 'She is very like the deceased', from other papers...

[MA1004] The witness Malcolm very much represents the appearance of the deceased woman.

[DN1004] By the Jury-The witness (Mrs. Malcolm), who stated that she was the sister of the deceased, very much represents the appearance of the deceased. The latter never had a child by me, but she told me that she had been intimate with a policeman when she lived at Hyde-park and before she was married to Stride. I never heard that she had a child by the policeman. She told me she had been the mother of nine children. Two of them were drowned in the Princess Alice disaster, and the others are in some school connected with the Swedish Church, somewhere over London-bridge. The deceased could speak Yiddish.

So Mary Malcolm looks a lot like Swedish Stride.
It would not be a stretch to therefore suppose that Elizabeth Stokes also looks like Liz Stride.
So although Malcolm needed a couple of goes at identifying the victim at the mortuary, she was not codding when she told Baxter she was sure it was her sister.
Are we dealing with a case of identity theft?

Kidney's reference to Stride speaking Yiddish, also appears in the Times:

I thoroughly believe the deceased was a Swede, and came from a superior class. She could also speak Yiddish.

That might help her in gaining employment. Or maybe it already had:

[Elizabeth Tanner] She told me she was working among the Jews.

Kidney's remarks about having a detective at his disposal, are very curious...

[Kidney] I could give information that would enable the detectives to discover the man at any time.
[Coroner] Then will you give us your information now?
[Kidney] I told the inspector on duty at the police-station that I could give information provided he would let me have a young, strange detective to act on it, and he would not give me one.
[Coroner] What do you think should be inquired into?
[Kidney] I might have given information that would have led to a great deal if I had been provided with a strange young detective.
[A Juror] Have you got any information for a detective?
[Kidney] I am a great lover of discipline, sir. (Laughter.)

So what could Kidney mean by 'strange young detective'?
The clue might come from this part of the exchange with Baxter:

[Kidney] I have information which I think might be of use to the police.
[Coroner] You had better give it, then.
[Kidney] I believe that, if I could place the policeman myself, the man would be captured.

So where does Kidney want to place his strange young detective?
By interpreting 'strange' as a euphemism for 'foreign', the answer becomes fairly clear; Inside the Berner street club.
Kidney wants a young policeman of Eastern European background, to join the IWMEC for the purpose of spying on it, in relation to the murderer and further murders.
For obvious reasons, he cannot announce this at the inquest...

[Inspector Reid] But you have no information to give to the police?
[Kidney] No, I will keep it to myself.

[Kattrup]

So what could Kidney mean by 'strange young detective'?
The clue might come from this part of the exchange with Baxter:

[Kidney] I have information which I think might be of use to the police.
[Coroner] You had better give it, then.
[Kidney] I believe that, if I could place the policeman myself, the man would be captured.

So where does Kidney want to place his strange young detective?
By interpreting 'strange' as a euphemism for 'foreign', the answer becomes fairly clear

I haven’t seen the original but I’ve always assumed strange to be a mistype or misread for strong. It’s in other places as well in the transcripts, as I recall, “strange” where one would expect “strong”

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I haven’t seen the original but I’ve always assumed strange to be a mistype or misread for strong. It’s in other places as well in the transcripts, as I recall, “strange” where one would expect “strong”

Why do you suppose Kidney also specifies that he needs a young detective?
What would be wrong with having a highly experienced, middle-aged detective?
Simple - almost all the IWMEC members are young - late teens to late twenties - so the undercover detective has to be young too.

[Joshua Rogan]

I haven’t seen the original but I’ve always assumed strange to be a mistype or misread for strong. It’s in other places as well in the transcripts, as I recall, “strange” where one would expect “strong”

I'm pretty sure he does mean strange, as in a stranger, ie unknown in the area.
Some reports even say as much, ie the Daily News "He wanted a young detective who was not known in the district".
Others have him saying "The parties I obtained my information from knew me, and I thought someone else would be able to derive more from them"

[Kattrup]

I'm pretty sure he does mean strange, as in a stranger, ie unknown in the area.
Some reports even say as much, ie the Daily News "He wanted a young detective who was not known in the district".
Others have him saying "The parties I obtained my information from knew me, and I thought someone else would be able to derive more from them"

Very likely, Joshua, thanks.

[Michael W Richards]

do they? MM’s sister had three husbands, none of whom was police, as far as I know (wine merchant, seaman/Royal Navy, bricklayer) and she resided in places like Bath, Peckham, Tottenham. “ I never lived in Commercial road nor kept a coffee house at Poplar” she said.

What has happened is rather that MM used garbled details from Stride’s life when describing her sister. That is why so many details seem similar. The coroner, in summing up, mentions a lot of details which many seem to accept as true. But it is important to note that he qualifies the list “If her evidence was correct, there were points of resemblance between the deceased and Elizabeth Watts which almost reminded one of the Comedy of Errors.” (my bold).

why would and how could MM know what she did? we don’t know for sure and until further sources surface, we cannot know.
She was a ghoulish attention seeker or she was mentally ill could be the why, the how could be from talking to people, either before or during the inquest, or perhaps details of Stride’s life were mentioned by the press.
Another theory is that Stride was scamming MM, posing as MM’s sister in order to receive alms. Against that speaks Stride’s accent, which according to Lane and Ollsen was noticeable, according to Tanner however she spoke English like an Englishwoman. A scam like that would explain the coincidence of Liz MM’s “sister” asking for help for lodging and Stride going to the lodging house same evening. So the person MM though was her sister was actually Stride, which explains why her description of the sister sounds like Stride.
Interesting theory, at least it has a lot more going for it than Simon Wood’s odd theory of...something quite uncertain involving witnesses referencing different bodies.



No need to wonder, as the witnesses speak it plainly: “She was known by the nick-name of "Long Liz." and “Did you recognise it? - Yes, as the body of Long Liz”

From Mary Malcolm..."Has she ever told you of troubles she was in with any man? - Oh yes; she lived with a man.
[Coroner] Do you know his name? - I do not remember now, but I shall be able to tell you to- morrow. I believe she lived with a man who kept a coffee-house in Poplar.

To Mary Malcolm..."Did you ever hear her called "Long Liz"? - That was generally her nickname, I believe.

To Elizabeth Tanner"[Coroner] Who is she? - She was known by the nick-name of "Long Liz."

Either you just missed these remarks or chose not to look for them, but that's Mary Malcolm saying her sister lived in Poplar with a man who kept a coffee house, that her sister Elizabeth Watts was called "Long Liz" and Elizabeth Tanner saying Liz Stride was known as "Long Liz."
My point therefore is still as viable as it was before your post...why do we see witnesses who knew Elizabeth Stride giving details of her life that are also given by Mary Malcolm about her sister Elizabeth Watts?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Either you just missed these remarks or chose not to look for them, but that's Mary Malcolm saying her sister lived in Poplar with a man, that her sister Elizabeth Watts was called "Long Liz" and Elizabeth Tanner saying Liz Stride was known as "Long Liz."

Was Liz Stride known as 'Long Liz' because she'd been given that nickname, or because Liz was in the habit of telling people that that was her nickname, after she nicked it from Liz Watts?

[jerryd]

Was Elizabeth Watts or Elizabeth Stride known as "Wally Warden"?


-the news quickly spread that a woman had visited the Whitechapel mortuary, and identified the body found in Berner-street as that of an unfortunate of her acquaintance named "Wally" Warden, who had lived in Brick-lane.

-The two new victims are called Isabel Stride, known among her companions by the nickname "Long Liz" and Wally Warden.

-A third account says the victim was an unfortunate, named "Wally" Warden, who had lived in Brick-lane.

[Kattrup]

Either you just missed these remarks or chose not to look for them, but that's Mary Malcolm saying her sister lived in Poplar with a man who kept a coffee house, that her sister Elizabeth Watts was called "Long Liz" and Elizabeth Tanner saying Liz Stride was known as "Long Liz."
My point therefore is still as viable as it was before your post...why do we see witnesses who knew Elizabeth Stride giving details of her life that are also given by Mary Malcolm about her sister Elizabeth Watts?[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

I don’t know what to tell you, Michael, I think you didn’t read my reply very thoroughly.

”What has happened is rather that MM used garbled details from Stride’s life when describing her sister. That is why so many details seem similar.”

Everything Malcolm says about her sister is untrue (maybe not literally, I haven’t checked).
The sister shows up and says it’s a lie!

The witnesses like Tanner who knew Stride are giving details about Stride. Malcolm did not know Stride but at the inquest knows some details of her life and use that knowledge to make it appear plausible that stride was her sister Stokes.

So Malcolm is giving details about Stride when describing her sister. How does she know these details? That is as yet unknown. I haven’t checked how many details of Stride’s life appeared in the press early. Sshe may have asked around. Or as said, there’s the theory that she did know stride, but that stride posed as her sister Stokes, feeding Malcolm snippets of her own life story.

the point is, the only one claiming any similar details between stride and Stokes is Malcolm.

[Michael W Richards]

I don’t know what to tell you, Michael, I think you didn’t read my reply very thoroughly.

”What has happened is rather that MM used garbled details from Stride’s life when describing her sister. That is why so many details seem similar.”

Everything Malcolm says about her sister is untrue (maybe not literally, I haven’t checked).
The sister shows up and says it’s a lie!

The witnesses like Tanner who knew Stride are giving details about Stride. Malcolm did not know Stride but at the inquest knows some details of her life and use that knowledge to make it appear plausible that stride was her sister Stokes.

So Malcolm is giving details about Stride when describing her sister. How does she know these details? That is as yet unknown. I haven’t checked how many details of Stride’s life appeared in the press early. Sshe may have asked around. Or as said, there’s the theory that she did know stride, but that stride posed as her sister Stokes, feeding Malcolm snippets of her own life story.

the point is, the only one claiming any similar details between stride and Stokes is Malcolm.

Ok, maybe I did get your message skewed a bit, but I don't see how arriving at a conclusion that Malcolm lied is warranted. How do we know that the person who has been identified as Elizabeth Stride nee Gustavsdotter from Goteborg is this victim? There are differences in these stories Kattrup, its not a done deal that MM lied at all.

[Simon Wood]

Mrs. Elizabeth Watts/Sneller/Stokes had received an anonymous letter from Shepton Mallet, saying that her first husband [of three] Edward Watts, was alive. It sounds akin to a blackmail letter, but we can't say for certain. She had brought her "poor crippled" third husband, Joseph Stokes, to the inquest. "He is now outside," she told the coroner.

Elizabeth Watts second husband was mentioned at the inquest by Mary Malcolm. The conversation went—

[Malcolm] Oh yes; she lived with a man.
[Coroner] Do you know his name?
[Malcolm] I do not remember now, but I shall be able to tell you to- morrow. I believe she lived with a man who kept a coffee-house at Poplar.
[Inspector Reid] Was his name Stride?
[Malcolm] No; I think it was Dent, but I can find out for certain by to-morrow.
[Coroner] How long had she ceased to live with that man?
[Malcolm] Oh, some time. He went away to sea, and was wrecked on the Isle of St. Paul, I believe.
[Coroner] How long ago should you think that was? - It must be three years and a half; but I could tell you all about it by to-morrow, even the name of the vessel that was wrecked.

Elizabeth Stokes second husband, Joseph Sneller, was in the navy. He was a scoundrel, and punished for desertion, disobedience and insolence. Here's part of his naval record—



The name of his ship was HMS Megaera. It was wrecked on the uninhabited island of St. Paul in the Indian Ocean. Mrs Malcolm put the incident at mid-1884. It actually took place in July 1871. On 29th August 1871 the ships Malacca and HMS Rinaldo arrived and took off the survivors.

All the crew survived and were shipped to Singapore.

This means that all three of Elizabeth Watts husbands were alive.

There was a lot going on at the Stride inquest, including the letter from Shepton Mallet

Regards,

Simon

[drstrange169]

Sven Olsson said:- I live at 36, Prince's-square, and am clerk to the Swedish Church in that square. I saw the body of the deceased in the mortuary on Tuesday morning. I have known deceased about 17 years.
The CORONER. - Was she a Swede? -Yes.
What was her name? - Elizabeth Gustafsdotter was her maiden name. Elizabeth Stride was her married name, and she was the wife of John Thomas Stride, a ship's carpenter. She was born on the 27th of November, 1843 at Forslander, near Gottenburg, in Sweden.
...
The CORONER. - When was she registered? Witness. - Our register is dated July 10,1866. She was registered as an unmarried woman.
The CORONER. - How do you know she was the wife of John Thomas Stride? Witness. - I suppose she gave it to the clergyman, as it is written here. In the registry I find a memorandum, undated, in the handwriting of the Rev. Mr. Palmar, in abbreviated Swedish. It means, "married to an Englishman, John Thomas Stride." I do not know when this entry was made.
The CORONER. - How long has Mr. Palmar been at the church? Witness. - About a year. This registry is a new one and copied from an older book. I have seen the original entry, and it was written many years ago.

...
Inspector Reid. - Do you know this hymnbook? Witness. - Yes.
The CORONER. - Is there any name in it? Witness. - No; I gave it to the deceased last winter.
The CORONER. - Do you know when she was married to Stride? Witness. - I think it was in 1869. She told me her husband was drowned in the Princess Alice.
The CORONER. - Have you any schools connected with the Swedish Church? Witness. - No; I do not remember hearing she ever had any children. She told me her husband went down in the Princess Alice.
The CORONER. - Have you ever seen her husband? Witness. - No; I think we gave the deceased some assistance before we knew her husband was dead. I forget where she was living at the time, but two years ago she gave her address as Devonshire-street, Commercial-road. She said she was doing a little work - sewing. Deceased could speak English pretty well.

Unless Elizabeth Watts was fluent in Swedish, I'd say the problem's probably solved.