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. . . his pony shied to the left . . . was it because the murderer was there?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post

    ... cachuwes, surely?
    I bet your Extra Strong Mints never caused such confectionary-based controversy Sam?
    Regards

    Herlock






    "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

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    • #17
      Why don't you guys clear that one up right now, for good. Cachuwes or cachous? Is there a difference? This dispute has shown up on the board several times.

      Never mind what we call them, I am no longer even sure if the damn things were grapes/candy/nuts. Thanks to you guys I know more about where that woman's fingers were, clutching the bag, or the box (see what I mean), than I do about what she was actually clutching.

      What was she clutching on to, candy/nuts/grapes?

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      • #18
        It's cachous, or cachou (singular). For etymology and usage see, for example:
        https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/cachou

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        • #19
          Cachuwes was just my pun on "Juwes"
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
            Cachuwes was just my pun on "Juwes"
            Ah yes, I see now...apologies for not appreciating your levity, Gareth!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
              Cachuwes was just my pun on "Juwes"
              Duh! Oh sorry!

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              • #22
                Most publications surrounding the events of Stride’s murder in the early hours of Sunday 30th September 1888 in reference to Diemschutz entering Dutfield’s Yard state that, either the pony shied to the left on entering the yard, or that the horse was reluctant to enter the yard.
                However, reference to the contemporary notes from the Stride Inquest is 'from the horse's mouth' as they say.

                The Coroner, Mr. Wynne E. Baxter (questioning Diemschutz): “Have you ever seen men and women in the yard?”
                Diemschutz: “I have not”
                The Coroner: “Have you ever heard of their being found there”
                Diemschutz: “Not to my knowledge”
                The Foreman: “Was there sufficient room for you to pass the body when you went into the yard?”
                Diemschutz: “Yes.; and did so. When my pony shied I was passing the body, and was right by when I got down”

                This clearly shows that the popular and often repeated accounts surrounding Stride’s murder are not 100% correct. The horse did not refuse to enter the yard, and when it shied it was not because of the body, as it had clearly passed the body and was well into the yard. The horse it would appear actually shied when it was startled by the presence of the murderer in the darkness of the yard beyond.
                ‘There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact’ Sherlock Holmes

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                  I'm told that horses react to blood, but I don't know for certain that it's true.
                  Yes, horses do not like the smell of blood. My chestnut gelding put up a fuss in his stall when rabbits were killed nearby.

                  "Shy" doesn't mean just stopping still and refusing to walk on. It does often mean a jump or pull sideways. My horse did tend to crouch down in place when spooked by a sudden flock of birds rushing upwards,but he was a riding horse, and trained not to jump or buck (fortunately for me!)

                  Harness horses generally wear "blinders" (flat pieces of leather on the sides of the bridle), which keep them from seeing things off to the sides of them. With his vision focused straight ahead, the peddler's pony shouldn't have shied to the left because of a movement on either side,but might have if a) someone stood up suddenly in front of him or b) he stepped on something on the ground. Of course,it is always possible this particular pony did not have blinders on his harness bridle.

                  Pat D.
                  Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
                  ---------------
                  Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
                  ---------------

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Spider View Post
                    Most publications surrounding the events of Stride’s murder in the early hours of Sunday 30th September 1888 in reference to Diemschutz entering Dutfield’s Yard state that, either the pony shied to the left on entering the yard, or that the horse was reluctant to enter the yard.
                    However, reference to the contemporary notes from the Stride Inquest is 'from the horse's mouth' as they say.

                    The Coroner, Mr. Wynne E. Baxter (questioning Diemschutz): “Have you ever seen men and women in the yard?”
                    Diemschutz: “I have not”
                    The Coroner: “Have you ever heard of their being found there”
                    Diemschutz: “Not to my knowledge”
                    The Foreman: “Was there sufficient room for you to pass the body when you went into the yard?”
                    Diemschutz: “Yes.; and did so. When my pony shied I was passing the body, and was right by when I got down”

                    This clearly shows that the popular and often repeated accounts surrounding Stride’s murder are not 100% correct. The horse did not refuse to enter the yard, and when it shied it was not because of the body, as it had clearly passed the body and was well into the yard. The horse it would appear actually shied when it was startled by the presence of the murderer in the darkness of the yard beyond.


                    Times (London)
                    Tuesday, 2 October 1888

                    I wanted to add this citing to your post; anyone looking at the Casebook published inquest wouldn't find the Foreman's question you cited. You have to go to the Times (more complete) narrative of the testimony.

                    It is also reprinted in The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion, Evans and Skinner.

                    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Funny but the Casebook publication of Louis Diemschutz's inquest testimony includes two questions from a juror:

                    1. A Juror: Could you in going up the yard have passed the body without touching it? - Oh, yes.
                    2. A Juror; Was it possible for anybody to leave the yard between the discovery of the body and the arrival of the police?

                    neither of which appears in the Times narrative.

                    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    On the other hand the Times narrative includes two Foreman questions that don't appear in the Casebook publication.

                    1. The Foreman. - Was there sufficient room for you to pass the body when you went into the yard?
                    2. The Foreman. - When you went for the police, who was in charge of the body?

                    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    You can't claim one is more complete than the other, both have holes. Odd!


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                    • #25
                      the horse didn't want to step on a corpse so it tried to go around. I know, this is difficult stuff lol
                      "Is all that we see or seem
                      but a dream within a dream?"

                      -Edgar Allan Poe


                      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                      -Frederick G. Abberline

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                        the horse didn't want to step on a corpse so it tried to go around. I know, this is difficult stuff lol
                        First off, I do agree with your assessment and it is likely that is what the pony did, but that's why we are examining the use of the words 'shy' and 'pulled' those words don't imply the pony just walking around something; but of course the speaker (Lewis) could be over stating the pony's reaction - it could be that he is just using the word shy because it sounds like a 'horse word'; maybe he should have just said, 'walked around' but he didn't.

                        You can see in a post above that to horse owners the word has a particular meaning, and it is one that usually suggests a "reaction" by the horse not just a walk around adjustment, a rider/driver is well aware when his horse 'shies.'

                        There is in the use of the word an implication of fear on the part of the pony.

                        Re your second sentence: closing down the in inquiry by calling it pointless and the act of only dumb people, is a whole other kind of bias that can make an investigation torpid.

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                        • #27
                          Late to the party, but pretty much what PCDunn said. Shying doesn't mean that the horse stopped, but rather that he wanted to pull to one side or another, usually because he's nervous about something. It's not always fear, per se, but just that he doesn't want to go exactly the way his human wants, either because he doesn't trust his footing (as would be the case if Deimschutz inadvertently tried to have him walk over the dead woman), or he's aware of something that makes him nervous (Jack crouching in the shadows - that's odd behaviour for a human, so worrisome). If he had to step around the dead woman because his human tried to drive him right over her, that's going to be worrisome to a horse as well. Shying is an "I don't like/trust this" reaction from the horse. He's pulling against the reins, so that his driver or rider needs to pay attention, because the horse thinks something is wrong. Deimschutz did the sensible thing by stopping to see what the pony knew that he didn't, before proceeding blindly down the passage.
                          Last edited by Ginger; 07-15-2019, 09:46 PM. Reason: Afterthought
                          - Ginger

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                          • #28
                            “When my pony shied I was passing the body, ……….. ”
                            ‘There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact’ Sherlock Holmes

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                            • #29
                              Shying...."..to start back or aside, as in fear."..."to draw back; recoil."...."to keep away from; avoid:"
                              Michael Richards

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